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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Bravo Gisèle

103 replies

HerGorgeousMajestyArabellaScott · 23/10/2024 12:24

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgr2yym0nko

"I want all women who have been raped to say: Madame Pelicot did it, I can too. I don't want them to be ashamed any longer,"

"I've been told I'm brave. This isn't being brave, it's having the will and determination to change society."
"Bravery means jumping into the sea to rescue someone. I just have will and determination," she said.
"This is why I come here every day... Even if I hear unspeakable things, I am holding on because of all the men and women who are right behind me."

Flowers
BBC News

Gisèle Pelicot takes stand in French mass rape trial

She tells a court she wants women who have been raped to know that "it's not for us to have shame - it's for them".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgr2yym0nko

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/11/2024 14:42

Yes, ridiculous.

ErrolTheDragon · 21/11/2024 14:50

Anyone who could accidentally slip drugs into a drink surely isnt sufficiently compos mentis to be a senator.Hmm
As piss poor excuses go, it's piss poor.

MarieDeGournay · 21/11/2024 19:47

“I had to re-live a heinous discovery and reassociate myself with perverse and difficult predatory behaviour by the man I was married to, and the father of my children.
“It has been extremely difficult. I did not ask to be a victim of such abuse, but it is a label that I will have to live with for the rest of my life.

I've just read these words in a court report. I'm not putting the case on the same level as the GP case, let me be very clear about that; but the words seemed so familiar..

This is the case of a woman who found out by accident that her husband had been taking intimate photographs of her, and sharing them with other men online...
Her husband too was a 'respectable' father and husband who she had absolutely no reason not to trust..
Man jailed after taking intimate photos of wife without her knowledge and sending them to other men online – The Irish Times

MaidOfAle · 22/11/2024 00:23

And men wonder why female marriage refusal is on the rise.

Kucinghitam · 22/11/2024 08:44

I regularly find myself wondering, "What the actual living fuck is wrong with so many men?" Angry

BezMills · 22/11/2024 10:39

Rape culture, right there

ErrolTheDragon · 22/11/2024 10:45

BezMills · 22/11/2024 10:39

Rape culture, right there

That's a bit of a chicken and egg answer though isn't it?

It might be interesting to see what theories "decent" men have for this type of behaviour.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 22/11/2024 11:49

ErrolTheDragon · 22/11/2024 10:45

That's a bit of a chicken and egg answer though isn't it?

It might be interesting to see what theories "decent" men have for this type of behaviour.

Here's a "decent" man, though I have no proof of that.

Men's sexuality is difficult for decent men to deal with, especially in a society that displays sexual images everywhere and gives very easy access to more extreme images and videos. Men are in general very easily aroused by what they see. They also have external genitalia which can be aroused by touch - including by clothing when just going about daily tasks. So men's attention can very easily turn to sexual thoughts. Not every few seconds, but particularly in young men, it can be frequently and at inconvenient times.

So a man who wishes to treat women with respect has to manage his physical and psychological urges, and to redirect his thoughts away from anything that might lead to inappropriate behaviour. There is a difference between appreciating beauty in someone and fantasising about a sexual encounter. There is a difference between looking at someone and thinking "how lovely" and staring at someone lustfully ("the male gaze"), but the boundary is easily crossed. Even for a man who wants to behave well towards women, it's likely that he will cross that boundary sometimes. There is a big biological imperative to "spread one's seed" and it's built in to the extent that most men find most women sexually attractive.

Again, crossing that boundary in fantasy doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be crossed physically. Men who sometimes have "impure thoughts" are mostly not rapists, and nor are they necessarily promiscuous, and they do not necessarily ever have an affair. But I think virtually all men are vulnerable to overstepping their own boundaries, and if they can overstep their own boundaries, there is a risk that they will overstep other people's boundaries. This applies particularly to adolescents who are dealing with new urges, but for many the struggle to be true to our ideals and values continues long after that.

Then you also have men who have not been culturally conditioned to respect women, and in them the boundaries are much weaker. Society often excuses lack of respect for women - "boys will be boys", "sowing wild oats" is condoned, porn is accepted, Trump-style "locker room talk" is not condemned. Society says promiscuity is OK or even good, "sex positivity" is promoted, narcissism is normalised in social media, and so on. Boundaries are easy to weaken, and our "permissive" society has certainly managed to do so. Once boundaries are weak or non-existent, men can persuade themselves that giving their sexual urges free rein is "normal", "everyone does it". As a teenager I knew young men who had effectively no thought for how their behaviour might impact the young women they were sleeping with. For example, pregnancy wasn't their concern. How did they reach adolescence without learning that the consequences of our actions are our responsibility, not just the responsibility of those directly impacted?

I will be surprised if no-one reading this thinks I am excusing men. I am really not interested in doing so. Men can and should control their instincts and urges sufficiently to avoid damaging women. It is our responsibility to do so, and clearly at a societal level and at a personal level men are failing to do that.

BezMills · 22/11/2024 14:23

sorry Errol, I cross-posted (my thread locally was out of date by almost 24h, mea culpa). I was intending to reply to UtopiaPlanitia · Yesterday 14:38 but completely failed. Sorry!

AliasGrace47 · 23/11/2024 17:20

She's so, so brave. She did this for other women, & they came out to support her. To me she personifies true nobility.
'You can be certain that long patience, and griefs jealously hidden, have tempered and sharpened and toughened this woman until everyone cries, ' She's made of steel!' No, she's merely made of woman, and that's sufficient.' - Colette, The Vagabond (based on her own abusive marriage)

lcakethereforeIam · 24/11/2024 08:52

Another article in the Times

https://archive.ph/OkZM8

https://www.thetimes.com/world/europe/article/revealed-the-post-court-lunches-and-jokes-shared-by-pelicot-accused-7zwtkswfv

The owner of a café where some of the accused wait hit the nail on the head

Youssef said. “I’ve asked them, can you imagine if your wife drugged you and invited men round? They didn’t answer me.”

Gisele and her children have all been so brave. The cost to them is horrific. I cannot imagine the torture this has been for all of them especially Gisele. She's amazing. I hope they can put these vile men in their past and find peace.

Revealed: the post-court lunches and jokes shared by Pelicot accused

Dozens of men accused of raping Gisèle Pelicot have descended upon the medieval French city for the trial. Residents find their presence deeply unsettling

https://www.thetimes.com/world/europe/article/revealed-the-post-court-lunches-and-jokes-shared-by-pelicot-accused-7zwtkswfv

deeahgwitch · 24/11/2024 09:43

I just hope to goodness that they eventually catch all the men involved.
The police haven't managed to catch them all yet. 🤷‍♀️
All the criminal perpetrators should be photographed and their names and faces published.

HerGorgeousMajestyArabellaScott · 24/11/2024 10:22

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 22/11/2024 11:49

Here's a "decent" man, though I have no proof of that.

Men's sexuality is difficult for decent men to deal with, especially in a society that displays sexual images everywhere and gives very easy access to more extreme images and videos. Men are in general very easily aroused by what they see. They also have external genitalia which can be aroused by touch - including by clothing when just going about daily tasks. So men's attention can very easily turn to sexual thoughts. Not every few seconds, but particularly in young men, it can be frequently and at inconvenient times.

So a man who wishes to treat women with respect has to manage his physical and psychological urges, and to redirect his thoughts away from anything that might lead to inappropriate behaviour. There is a difference between appreciating beauty in someone and fantasising about a sexual encounter. There is a difference between looking at someone and thinking "how lovely" and staring at someone lustfully ("the male gaze"), but the boundary is easily crossed. Even for a man who wants to behave well towards women, it's likely that he will cross that boundary sometimes. There is a big biological imperative to "spread one's seed" and it's built in to the extent that most men find most women sexually attractive.

Again, crossing that boundary in fantasy doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be crossed physically. Men who sometimes have "impure thoughts" are mostly not rapists, and nor are they necessarily promiscuous, and they do not necessarily ever have an affair. But I think virtually all men are vulnerable to overstepping their own boundaries, and if they can overstep their own boundaries, there is a risk that they will overstep other people's boundaries. This applies particularly to adolescents who are dealing with new urges, but for many the struggle to be true to our ideals and values continues long after that.

Then you also have men who have not been culturally conditioned to respect women, and in them the boundaries are much weaker. Society often excuses lack of respect for women - "boys will be boys", "sowing wild oats" is condoned, porn is accepted, Trump-style "locker room talk" is not condemned. Society says promiscuity is OK or even good, "sex positivity" is promoted, narcissism is normalised in social media, and so on. Boundaries are easy to weaken, and our "permissive" society has certainly managed to do so. Once boundaries are weak or non-existent, men can persuade themselves that giving their sexual urges free rein is "normal", "everyone does it". As a teenager I knew young men who had effectively no thought for how their behaviour might impact the young women they were sleeping with. For example, pregnancy wasn't their concern. How did they reach adolescence without learning that the consequences of our actions are our responsibility, not just the responsibility of those directly impacted?

I will be surprised if no-one reading this thinks I am excusing men. I am really not interested in doing so. Men can and should control their instincts and urges sufficiently to avoid damaging women. It is our responsibility to do so, and clearly at a societal level and at a personal level men are failing to do that.

I don't think you're excusing men, but it sounds like you're just describing sexuality and socialisation.

That is different to rape and rape culture, which is predicated on non-consent.

That's not just an absence of consent, but a deliberate impulse to actively transgress.

I do think the two are different although I suppose there may be some grey areas.

OP posts:
HerGorgeousMajestyArabellaScott · 24/11/2024 10:24

The rapists of Mme Pelicot may pretend there was merely an absence of consent. I'd say they actively sought a woman who was incapable of consent.

OP posts:
WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 24/11/2024 10:39

This is why absence of consent really should be remapped in law worldwide as "rape". It's abominable that there's anything between rape and not-rape.

HerGorgeousMajestyArabellaScott · 24/11/2024 13:06

My point is:

'Once boundaries are weak or non-existent, men can persuade themselves that giving their sexual urges free rein is "normal",'

I dont think rape is just about sexual urges. It's also a need/desire to hurt and abuse. I don't buy that rape is on one end of a spectrum of horniness. I think it's a decision. I don't think men just 'lose control', because that implies they would all rape if there were no checks.

Rape is a choice.

OP posts:
JellySaurus · 24/11/2024 16:16

*I don't think you're excusing men, but it sounds like you're just describing sexuality and socialisation.

That is different to rape and rape culture, which is predicated on non-consent.*

But when men are socialised on porn and taught that women's boundaries are irrelevant, rape culture becomes part of their socialisation, part of their normal.

Nonetheless, rape remains a matter of the man's choice. I think that a man socialised to respect women's boundaries will recognise wrongness and exert pressure on himself not to rape, no matter how angry or aroused he is.

These lowlifes chose to make contact with Mme Pelicot's then husband on a website that explicitly advertised forcing sex on a woman while she was unconscious. They chose to satisfy themselves in her body without any concern for her well-being. And the few men who recognised that Mme Pelicot was unconscious when they arrived, and recognised that what they were considering doing was wrong, chose not to stop the abuse, chose not to report it. Even the men who refused to rape Mme Pelicot were embedded in and prioritise rape culture.

It is clear that for many men rape culture = normal socialisation.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 24/11/2024 17:26

HerGorgeousMajestyArabellaScott · 24/11/2024 13:06

My point is:

'Once boundaries are weak or non-existent, men can persuade themselves that giving their sexual urges free rein is "normal",'

I dont think rape is just about sexual urges. It's also a need/desire to hurt and abuse. I don't buy that rape is on one end of a spectrum of horniness. I think it's a decision. I don't think men just 'lose control', because that implies they would all rape if there were no checks.

Rape is a choice.

I wasn't going to reply, because I feel very uncomfortable butting in to this conversation. I will just say that I think that some sexual infringement on women is a matter of choosing to act on sexual urges; boundary violations can be exciting, whether consensual crossing of what's considered acceptable or "vanilla", or non-consensual violation of other people's boundaries.

Rape is indeed a choice, as is voyeurism, flirting with someone who is "out of bounds", aggressive body language, physical violence, and many other acts. Horrifyingly, violence and sex are mixed up in some men. I do not buy the idea that rape is always about violence and never about sexual urges; it is probably usually about both, and about dominance and control.

Sexual urges can sometimes blur boundaries for people (in my experience, women as well as men) but the abuse I experienced from an older woman as a teenager was definitely about control. It wasn't at the most serious end of the spectrum, but it was disturbing. Sexual behaviour was used as a way to give her control, and I was the available easy target. She would not have tried to control an older, less vulnerable man. I do not blame her for what happened. It was a long time ago and I think I know why she behaved as she did. For many men who want to abuse, it is all too easy to find vulnerable targets.

I've now said far more than I intended. I don't expect to add to this.

HerGorgeousMajestyArabellaScott · 24/11/2024 18:04

I do not buy the idea that rape is always about violence and never about sexual urges; it is probably usually about both

Agree with that. But I do think they are distinct drives, even if, as Jelly suggests above, rape culture tries to blur the boundaries.

boundary violations can be exciting

I suppose that's the crux of it, and I don't think that applies to everyone. The key is consent. Some find 'violations' exciting. Some don't.

(As an aside, of course these aren't easy things to discuss; they probably shouldn't be.)

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 24/11/2024 19:57

I think many of the comments about men's "sexuality" are probably true in some way.

But ... almost the worst aspect for me, is that men go on thinking just as they did centuries ago, that they can and should act on what they have been told by society is "natural". So for many it doesn't even cross their mind that they are breaking social boundaries, and least of all what it says about their attitude towards women.

I was about to say, they would be horrified, it someone acted like that toward their child/ren.

But then so many of them do themselves.

This has existed for centuries. But what has changed in more recent years in that the internet created an environment like Lord of the Flies. ie years, decades, centuries, of women (as tradition has it) socialised / civilised men's behaviour, the internet create a female free environment.

And this has now seeped back into IRL.

duc748 · 24/11/2024 20:17

That's an interesting thought, @IwantToRetire .

lcakethereforeIam · 25/11/2024 11:02

Another update, be warned some of the details I found particularly grim

https://archive.ph/JiSKv

https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/pelicot-trial-may-deter-other-justice-seekers-z7ncc589m

I know the defence have to do the best they can for their clients but I don't see what possible use any answer Gisele gave to these questions could be to any of their clients except, possibly, the last one for her former husband as desperate mitigation

Yet even this immense weight of evidence wasn’t enough to spare Mrs Pelicot from the accusations put to all women who press rape charges: allegations of complicity or guilt. The defence accused her of being insufficiently suspicious, of being an alcoholic, of not crying enough in court. They suggested that she could be to blame for her husband’s crimes as she had had an affair — as he did — decades before. A dazed, exhausted Gisèle says she has been left humiliated.

Nothing she could say to any of that would change what they did. They're coded appeals to the jury telling them that this is an impure, damaged woman who is too broken to be fixed. Compare her to these men, victims really, whose good lives will be shattered if they're found guilty. A not guilty verdict will be the least amount of harm to the greatest number of people.

Well that's my interpretation. It's used all the time. This young man will have his life ruined. That young tart woman can't be unraped, and it might not even have been rape, so why ruin two lives?

Pelicot trial may deter other justice seekers

Courageous wife’s court ordeal sends message to women about how harshly even a perfect rape victim can be treated

https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/pelicot-trial-may-deter-other-justice-seekers-z7ncc589m

IwantToRetire · 25/11/2024 16:48

I dont usually bother to read anything but this particulara writer (sorry) but as a link posted here I thought I would give it a go.

I dont think that in terms of women being intimidated from going to the police, ie going public, this court case has made it any worse.

If anything the overall impact of this case, particularly on women, and the country as a whole, is that a brave woman has faced down all the usually it was her fault notions.

There were huge marches across France only this weekend. With many women feeling better able to make public statements about their experiences of rape and sexual assault.

So on that personal level and hopefully a change in the law it will be easier for women to challenge what has been done to them by men.

How France, or any other country, gets men to accept that their view of the world and women is twisted is another issue.

As discussed on this thread yesterday.

https://news.sky.com/story/thousands-protest-against-sexual-violence-in-france-as-gisele-pelicot-trial-continues-13259096

Thousands protest against sexual violence in France as Gisele Pelicot trial continues

Protests take place across French cities to mark International Day for Elimination of Violence Against Women.

https://news.sky.com/story/thousands-protest-against-sexual-violence-in-france-as-gisele-pelicot-trial-continues-13259096

ScrollingLeaves · 25/11/2024 17:27

Who wrote this? You @RapidOnsetGenderCritic ?or were you quoting?

Not that what you say seems wrong. I think men have to deal with a lot about themselves. I once read an an account from a young woman who had had a phase of thinking she was trans. One of the things she described was what she eventually realised were the effects of testosterone - irrational irritability and strongly wanting physical expression to surges of mood, as well as some more sexual feelings that she could latch on to an orientation which was not native to her. An interesting comment from a man reading was that that is what men have to put up with:

I am a man and found a lot of your account unexpected, probably more so than a woman would have done. I also wonder if your experience with testosterone has given you a bit of an insight to some of the challenges it causes in all men and the behaviours we have to check and modify; I do wonder if it wouldn’t help many ardent feminist types to have some similar understanding.
https://lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name

ScrollingLeaves · 25/11/2024 17:32

ScrollingLeaves · 25/11/2024 17:27

Who wrote this? You @RapidOnsetGenderCritic ?or were you quoting?

Not that what you say seems wrong. I think men have to deal with a lot about themselves. I once read an an account from a young woman who had had a phase of thinking she was trans. One of the things she described was what she eventually realised were the effects of testosterone - irrational irritability and strongly wanting physical expression to surges of mood, as well as some more sexual feelings that she could latch on to an orientation which was not native to her. An interesting comment from a man reading was that that is what men have to put up with:

I am a man and found a lot of your account unexpected, probably more so than a woman would have done. I also wonder if your experience with testosterone has given you a bit of an insight to some of the challenges it causes in all men and the behaviours we have to check and modify; I do wonder if it wouldn’t help many ardent feminist types to have some similar understanding.
https://lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name

Edited

This was to
RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 22/11/2024 11:49
I apologise or being out of step with how the thread has moved on.

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