Kamala Harris has a problem with men. Will misogyny cost her the election?

[IwantToRetire]

There was an earlier thread about whether the Democrats would support a WOC candidate https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5124648-will-us-democrats-support-a-woc-as-their-candidate-or-will-they-by-pass-kamala-harris

And I think there were some later about her policies, but then maybe there weren't. https://kamalaharris.com/issues/

But was depressed to see this article Kamala Harris has a problem with men. Will misogyny cost her the election?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/20/kamala-harris-has-a-problem-with-men-will-misogyny-cost-her-the-election
(Should have been men have a problem, not making out she is the problem.)

Polls reflect this age-old dichotomy. Men are more likely to back Trump; women lean towards Harris. A recent New York Times-Siena poll put her 16 points ahead of Trump among female voters. NBC gave her a 14-point lead with women. Trump leads by up to 16 points among men.

Harris’s gender may be tacitly affecting or reinforcing attitudes in other voter categories. In the New York Times poll, 60% of white college-educated voters backed Harris, while 63% of white non-college-educated voters backed Trump. Likewise, Trump, who is white, has a significant advantage among white people while Harris, who identifies as black and Asian, leads among non-whites. Yet voters in two other key categories, blacks and Hispanics, are less supportive of Harris than of Biden in 2020, surveys show – a decline partly driven by younger, non-college-educated Hispanic males. Speaking in pivotal Pennsylvania, Barack Obama angrily castigated his black “brothers” for finding “all kinds of excuses” not to support a woman.

Its just really depressing to think this is the basis on which the decision about the next US President is taken. Because like it or not what the US does or doesn't do impacts on the rest of us.

Even though they are now talking about Trump's mental capacity Trump’s Unwieldy Speeches Raise Questions About His Mental Acuity https://www.forbes.com/sites/saradorn/2024/10/16/trumps-unwieldy-speeches-raise-questions-about-his-mental-acuity/ it doesn't seem likely it will change the minds of his supporters. And is already clear he doesn't feel the need to abide by accepted norms in terms of procedures.

Divisive politics in the UK seems to have lead to an apathy, disengagement (low turn out at GE) but it seems, if news channels are to be believed, that in the US the devisions are making people more active engaged. More oppositional

Or rather men not caring about women's issues, or even trusting a woman to be President.

I do think it is true that female leaders do have to possess what might traditionally be called 'masculine' characteristics if they are to inspire confidence.
Forthright, direct, unwavering, focused on the objectives.

Jacinda Arderne - the ex N.Z Prime minister was a like a big wet lettuce. Maybe there is a tendency for left leaning female candidates to be like this - focused on kindness, inclusiveness, elaborate emoting, lots of descriptive, flowery adjectives?

Why is it that most strong female leaders tend to come from the Right rather than the Left?

Curiously, on the other hand, a majority of conservative and far-right female leaders of our times – even the more “maternal” figures – often showcase characteristics that are can be either referred to masculine professions or typical of masculine leaderships. Many have a background in the STEM or “hard sciences”: Merkel is a physicist, Thatcher was a chemist, while Von der Leyen used to be a defense minister and Lagarde has long been in charge of financial matters. In the far-right, traditionally masculine traits emerge in aggressive attitudes, loud tone of voices, an overplayed assertiveness, sometimes even in the dress code.

https://www.eui.eu/news-hub?id=women-leaders-are-always-from-the-right

Yes, its why I think it with be a republican candidate that will be the first female US president.

Just like all three British female prime ministers have been Tory. I can also see the possibility in the future of having Kemi as PM, the first black woman. That could be 4 female PMs over the space of 40 years, all Tory.

Labour hasn’t even had a female as leader of the party, never mind a female PM.

So there has to be something in the perception of femaleness/toughness

Gosh, cerebral isn't the word I'd have used for Biden.

I think George W was a lot smarter than many people realized - his persona was just that, I think.

But I really do feel lately like the people getting to the top are kind of mediocre. Obama seemed fairly exciting in the US but I even wonder about him now, he pooched his attempts to push Harris so badly.

A lot of women don't like to talk that way. They like to be a little more equivocal, so they sound less pushy. I think this can have some advantages, for example in group work.

When I was in the military years ago, I found I had to modify my communication style somewhat to give the impression I wanted though - I had to sound more confident about my ideas and the direction I thought we should take, or it was like others didn't even notice I'd said anything.

It wasn't a bad lesson really, to learn to speak to the audience in front of me.

I tend to think so as well. I always think Condoleeza Rice could do very well.

Yup I agree, I really dislike both sets for different reasons. As shit as UK politics can be I thank god I’m not an american.

Maybe women have to look tough to make up for being female whereas men can get away with being Corbyn (not that he became prime minister but ykwim). Tbf I wouldn’t vote for anyone dithering on about kindness etc I want a hard headed realist, global politics especially has little to do with being nice.

Looking tough is not enough, Successful women in politics need to be tough...in the sense of having a strong ego, innate confidence and commitment. Also have an inner authority is vital too.

Please expand upon what exactly would render her 'useless' in a crisis?

And considering Trump is in bed with Putin, it's very presumptive of you to think he would do anything other than fawn over Putin if he did start sabre rattling...

stop that nonsense about trump love affair with putin. trump sent weapons to ukraine that was essential to repel first attack. obama refuse to do that.

Trump makes Putin nervous - as he does everybody - because he's so unpredictable and doesn't give a shit.

Kamala has no gravitas; is lightweight.....Putin is a heavyweight......he'd enjoy toying with her.

I don't think the analogy of international relations being some kind of heavyweight boxing tournament; e.g.,Trump in the ring v Putin, is very helpful.

What exactly do you know of her character?
You seem to be talking about personality, not character. Personality is the outward, superficial appearance. Character is about your values and your level of integrity.
Anybody can rattle a few sabres and look "tough."
Meloni is unabashedly a neo-fascist in the style of Il Duce. That's the opposite of integrity. It's despicable and kind of sad, really. Who takes her seriously, besides other fascists?

I don't think there is any real reason to think that Trump is "in bed" with Putin.

Whether or not you enjoy that....it is true. International politics is very much about power and strength and how that is projected.

Meloni is not 'neo fascist' at all.....in fact she seems to have been quite a revelation in her dealings with other world leaders, and is making a success of her remit. She stands by her convictions and has taken actions to shore them up - whether or not you agree with her convictions is not the point.

Kier Starmer, for one, has been very interested to hear how she is going about dealing with italy's migrant crisis, and she seems to have developed good working relationships with other EU countries.

She is the leader of a major EU country - you cannot dismiss her in such a way.

Georgia Meloni is very far to the right in many areas especially compared to the UK. The same is true for people like Gert Wilders who is decidedly anti Muslim. But, the difference is that they are still playing within the rules of the democratic system, and have faith in it to a certain extent (at least Meloni isn't more corrupting than Berlosconi). The people that voted for Wilders at least, don't seem to have done so because they want him to burn everything down even if they might want him to leave the EU. There is a fairly clear idea of "Wilder's said X, I agree with that so I will vote for him" compared to Trump's ramblings which seem to be interpreted differently by everyone. So its not the same level of destructiveness that is happening in the US where it feels like faith in democratic institutions/reality is being eroded at every step. But of course that might change if Trump does get in and those guys get encouragement from that/copy his tactics.

why is it not misogyny to call female leaders fascists if they are right-wing?

what exactly did meloni do to deserve this? she has been in power for 2 years, i have not seen black shirts beating people in the streets and institutions captured. i don't follow in detail, but I think that marie me pen also moved closer to the center, but she is still slandered as "extreme right" and often a fascist. afd in germany also has (or had?) female leader. there are others some in smaller countries. željka markić from croatia for example. ana brnabić from serbia (lesbian women was a prime minister, now head of parliament).

looks like they all are fair game because they are on the right.

Many on the left throw ‘facist’ and ‘far right’ at anyone who doesn’t support uncontrolled immigration.

The main point about Meloni, of course, is that she is an example of a strong and effective female leader who has built positive working relationships in Europe and beyond. She has some depth and kudos that Kamala seems to lack.

To be fair, no-one knew that really before she was elected. She was a bit of an unknown and people wrote a LOT of speculation about what she would be like as a leader. Kamala Harris is also an unknown quantity as president, so are most people that run for president to begin with. I don't think everyone is motivated by outright mysogyny, but status quo bias is a very real phenomenon and affects almost anyone. Because there is only one job, and it has always been done by a man it makes psychological sense to pick someone similar out of 2 unknown entities. I am not in Kamala's fan club, but at least she doesn't seem to have a long trail of people behind her who hate her guts. Whereas everything Trump seems involved in (building a golf course in Aberdeen, his New York companies, his casinos, his first presidency) seems to have resulted in people that worked alongside him openly denouncing him. Whereas there aren't many people coming out of the woodwork to say Kamala is awful/incompetant/weak. Which maybe adds to the sense of her as an unknown entity ironically.

@Shortshriftandlethal said;

Meloni is not 'neo fascist' at all

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/06/why-giorgia-meloni-wont-distance-herself-from-italys-fascist-past/

www.cbsnews.com/news/giorgia-meloni-italy-election-results-brothers-of-italy-far-right-wing-government/

you cannot dismiss her in such a way.

As far as I know stating my views on a politician does not violate the rules of MN, so yes, I can.

@bundevac said;

why is it not misogyny to call female leaders fascists if they are right-wing?

Are you saying it's automatically misogyny to criticize any woman?
I think you need to revisit the definition of that word.
It's actually quite paternalistic to say female leaders should be exempt from criticism just because they are female.