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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girl with suspected autism faces 12-match ban for asking transgender opponent: ‘Are you a man?’

152 replies

rooshoe · 18/10/2024 18:20

m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/teenage-girl-17-with-suspected-autism-faces-12-match-ban-for-asking-transgender-opponent-are-you-a-man/a1896883124.html

It's in the Telegraph too but that's behind a paywall - has anyone covered this on here already?

I have girls (the female kind) who play this and other 'boy' sports. I'm so worried. To even question the situation could mean severe punishment. What is wrong with this world?!

OP posts:
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MrsKeats · 19/10/2024 20:46

Stefanodad · 18/10/2024 20:36

To be fair though the article is designed to illicit this response. There’s no effort to see the story from any other perspective.

I play football (informally) against girls (I’m a man) and I’m not a threat to their safety because I’m not interested in hurting anyone. I’m interested in us enjoying ourselves.

it’s a 17year old playing against an adult (perhaps an 18year old, the journalist isn’t interested in reporting that) which happens all the time.

Additionally competitive girls football can be vicious without the inclusion of males at least it can be around where I live.

the ‘scandal’ here is about the over reaction to an innocent and valid question and the article does very little to get to the bottom of who’s at fault here.

Sorry to have an alternative opinion (I do think their are problems with trans inclusion in some sorting contexts) but I think this article as about stoking prejudice.

There is no 'other perspective'

maltravers · 19/10/2024 21:17

@Stefanodad , I am interested in your source for the assertion that both teams were LGBTQ inclusive. Are you relying on the girl’s comments once she was already in trouble? Do you think it is possible for women both to be supportive of gay men and transwomen but still want and deserve single sex sport?

maltravers · 19/10/2024 21:25

“After I threatened her a bit Your Honour, she agreed she wanted it”.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 19/10/2024 22:21

maltravers · 19/10/2024 21:17

@Stefanodad , I am interested in your source for the assertion that both teams were LGBTQ inclusive. Are you relying on the girl’s comments once she was already in trouble? Do you think it is possible for women both to be supportive of gay men and transwomen but still want and deserve single sex sport?

Indeed! There’s no reason at all why any sport shouldn’t be LGB inclusive - people’s sexuality has zero impact on their ability to play sport. That is completely different from inclusion involving the T

Some sports have made it very clear to women that they have to be inclusive of men who want to play in women’s teams on pain of forfeiting games or disqualification. DH is involved with such a sport. The governing body happily witters on about being LGBTQ+ inclusive when they really mean TQ inclusive. So yeah what kind of ‘inclusion’ are we talking about here??

TheDowagerCountessofPembroke · 19/10/2024 22:34

Stefanodad · 18/10/2024 22:05

“Why would asking the question of anyone be worth a ban?“

I don’t think it would be. Which is why I’m doubting we have the full story.

”the writer is a Telegraph journalist and its a legitimate story even if you don’t like it. But do tell us more about your lived experience as a man of where girls’ rights should start and end.”

All kinds of news orgs that should have known better ran the “Litter-Trays-in Classrooms” story too which turned out to be nonsense.

My lived experience is not to do with trying to undermine womens’ experience but about the decision making processes of organisations I’m sceptical (rightly or wrongly) that this is the kind of decision that would get made without a whole heap of context that, I reiterate, we haven’t the privilege of.

when I played with and against women and girls (and men and disabled people) it was in a community 5-a-side tournament intended to bring people together for fun. This kind of sport exists too.

listen I just wanted to present another view on this thread. I’m going to bed now. I’ll come back for a look tomorrow. but I don’t mean to get involved where I’m not welcome.

goodnight.

Thank you random man for sharing your insight in to women’s rights with women and then refusing to listen to the women when they tell you how they feel.

Stefanodad · 19/10/2024 23:12

I think I have been listening. Bit it’s fine I’ll go now. I know I’m an unwelcome guest here.

I’ve been asked several times where I play football with girls. Just to reiterate - because I feel I was characterised as some kind of deviant. - I’m a dad, I kick a ball about with my kids and their friends and my friends kids. It’s informal like I said, I’m not interested in taking part in competitive football. The only competitive context I’ve played in years is here:
https://www.iamandrewwilson.co.uk/community-cup. I’m not the organiser, I’m not in this video. Me, my wife and our kids made a team. If you think this is wrong then god help you.
It doesn’t mean I disrespect women who want to play competitive single sex sport. I’ve said that already.

I wish the girl in the article (about whom none of us know anything) and well. It must feel rubbish to have this complaint hanging over her. I find the assumptions people have made about how her not-yet-diagnosed autism colours the situation offensive btw autism can manifest in a million different ways as you well know.

If she asked the trans player an innocent question and is banned for 12 games, PM me and I’ll eat my hat and send a grovelling apology to the journalist and the girls mum. I looked into my soul and asked whether I was stereotyping the girls’ mum. The answer came back that I was a bit, but not because of prejudices about mums, only because I’m prejudiced about football parents of any gender.

And I said in my first post that I don’t think trans women should be allowed to participate in all womens’ sport contexts:

bloody hell I wrote too much. I won’t come back to this board. except for reasons of self criticism.

All the best

ImustLearn2Cook · 20/10/2024 03:16

From the article:

In documents seen about the incident, the girl admits asking a player she describes as having “a beard”, “Are you a man?” She also admits asking the referee for guidance about the player’s eligibility to participate in women’s football “given my concern for my safety after already suffering a number of overly physical challenges”.
But she has denied doing so constituted transphobia or that she made any comments that could be construed as such, while it is understood the referee also heard nothing he deemed to be discriminatory.

In a written statement submitted in her defence, the girl said she had become “confused” about the participation of the trans player during the match in question due to the latter “wearing jewellery and sunglasses” and not being in opposition kit.
She added: “The moment the player clarified they were transgender [which I previously hadn’t considered], I respected their answer fully, dropped the situation and immediately shifted my focus back to the game before seeking guidance from the referee. At no point was my question meant to be hurtful or malicious, as I only intended to seek clarity in an unfamiliar situation. Knowing now that the player was transgender, I understand that there were better ways to approach this question.”

My take on it:

Not immediately recognising that the person with a beard and male physique is identifying as a woman is an easy mistake to make. And not something deserving of such excessive or harsh consequences and serious accusations of transphobia.

As for autism. I have worked with many children who have autism and I have family members with autism. It is a spectrum disorder but it does not manifest in a million different ways. There is a diagnostic criteria because there are traits that are consistent among everyone who has autism. Struggling with social cues is one of those traits. Struggling or completely missing nuances of nonverbal communication, sarcasm or implied meanings is another trait. Which would make it difficult to recognise all the different shades of gender as opposed to the clear difference between two biological sexes. Being literal or direct another trait. Having a very high expectation of justice and fairness is another common trait.

And from all my experience with people who have autism, I can absolutely recognise some of those traits in the way she communicated. And I recognise the effort she is putting in to overcome her challenges and to try to handle this social situation (which would be hard for anyone btw) as best as she can.

By punishing her and accusing her of repeated transphobia and not in anyway taking her suspected autism into account, constitutes disability discrimination.

While it may be a side issue, I have been seeing an increase in discrimination and ignorance towards people with various disabilities. It’s not ok. Why is a perceived discrimination against a trans woman very wrong but somehow justifies discrimination against someone else’s disability.

Policing people’s words does not work because not everyone is able to communicate in the same way or the “correct way.”

sashh · 20/10/2024 04:00

If you are a member of your local library you can get free access to Press reader so you can read any newspaper FOC.
I only found this out last week.

SinnerBoy · 20/10/2024 04:58

MrsOvertonsWindow · Yesterday 13:53

Looks as if the gaslighting dad has disappeared but I'm linking an excellent article (by a Telegraph male sports journalist Oliver Brown) about the lack of credibility of the FA in prioritising the safety & inclusion of women and girls in Football.

Thanks, he really cut through the crap there, didn't he?

ElizaMulvil · 20/10/2024 07:45

re hholiday

'We’re not idiots - we do look at sources, we are perfectly aware that it’s the right wing media that are reporting stories on women’s versus trans rights that the left aren’t touching. But that doesn’t make them wrong.'

Perhaps you're not reading the 'proper' left newspapers eg The Morning Star

ElizaMulvil · 20/10/2024 08:17

re hholiay

'We’re not idiots - we do look at sources, we are perfectly aware that it’s the right wing media that are reporting stories on women’s versus trans rights that the left aren’t touching. But that doesn’t make them wrong.'

Yes, but perhaps you haven't read all the left papers eg the left Morning Star is gender critical (a paper supported by 11 Trade Unions and some Labour and ex Labour MPs)
or
seen all left parties views ; the very left Communist Party is gender critical.

Slothtoes · 20/10/2024 08:27

It is also a common trait that people with autism can struggle to recognise gender.

Yes. This important fact from the background in the article. Just letting that sink in. That is observably a trait of autism for some people. Especially given the over representation of young autistic people among those who are being told they are trans, and who are then are damaged accordingly. If this is properly accepted, the whole medical and surgical edifice crumbles.

Slothtoes · 20/10/2024 08:33

What a brave girl (and mum) at 17 to be so articulate and resolute. Going public is incredibly brave. I am so grateful to them for raising this issue in the media for public information.This young woman has stated her points so powerfully.

I’m angry for her though that after this stressful experience she has had to publicly reveal her own ND, which she may not otherwise have done. Purely in order to defend herself from nonsense allegations.

The life course stats for women with autism are very concerning and these do not get enough attention or scrutiny. Compare that to the attention and validation of transwomen and the elevating of male sexual rights, male sexual access to women becomes so clear.

Why do women and girls have to budge up, probably get physically injured, be silenced and intimidated, have their private lives outed, have their access to sports taken away from them? Why can’t you be male, reject male gender norms and also play sports in a male biological sex team? It doesn’t take away from anyone’s trans status to do that, but it respects their teammates’ rights to access their chosen sport. Which men joining a women’s team absolutely does not.

EasternStandard · 20/10/2024 08:36

It is also a common trait that people with autism can struggle to recognise gender.

This is important as it leads to the question why do we ask this of any child.

If it’s deception then adults should stop encouraging that and find another way to deal with gender dysphoria

popeydokey · 20/10/2024 08:45

I think @Stefanodad simply can't believe it's true because it sounds unbelievable.

Sadly those of us on here have seen countless similar stories. One of the egregious is where a lady who has an MBE for services to LGBT community got called transphobic in documents by the NHS simply for asking for a female practitioner to carry out her breast screening. She has been a victim of rape.

https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2019/12/09/hospital-apologises-to-rape-victim-for-branding-her-request-for-same-sex-breast-screening-medic-as-transphobic/

It's the same principle. Even vulnerable, young snd/or gay people are not allowed to discern someone's sex.

Hospital apologises to rape survivor for branding her request for same-sex breast-screening medic as transphobic

The NHS trust which runs the Royal Sussex has apologised to a rape survivor for including her letter requesting a

https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2019/12/09/hospital-apologises-to-rape-victim-for-branding-her-request-for-same-sex-breast-screening-medic-as-transphobic

MilletOver · 20/10/2024 09:01

She also admits asking the referee for guidance about the player’s eligibility to participate in women’s football “given my concern for my safety after already suffering a number of overly physical challenges”…
She added: “I raised a concern about the risk of serious injury as a 17-year-old girl playing against a biological male who was much larger than me and a very physical player, which was possibly a safety issue, as I did not want to get dangerously injured right before the start of the new season.
"Despite this, I made it clear that if the player met the eligibility criteria of the FA, I would respect the rules and accept the risk involved in continuing to play the match. My safeguarding officer and the referee were both present for this conversation.”

So the safeguarding officer is there to protect the feelings of the opponent rather than the physical safety of the female player?

The priorities in the politics of gender ideology are loud and clear here.

FannyCann · 20/10/2024 09:05

From the article posted by @popeydokey

The hospital said:

"However, it is not possible to guarantee to any patient that they will only be treated by a clinician assigned to a specific gender at birth"

Aagh. The conflation of sex and gender makes a nonsense of the Hospitals statement.

And you shouldn't need to be a rape survivor (which you might prefer ton keep private anyway) in order to request same sex intimate care.

Sorry for derail. Back to football.

MelodyMalone · 20/10/2024 09:19

popeydokey · 20/10/2024 08:45

I think @Stefanodad simply can't believe it's true because it sounds unbelievable.

Sadly those of us on here have seen countless similar stories. One of the egregious is where a lady who has an MBE for services to LGBT community got called transphobic in documents by the NHS simply for asking for a female practitioner to carry out her breast screening. She has been a victim of rape.

https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2019/12/09/hospital-apologises-to-rape-victim-for-branding-her-request-for-same-sex-breast-screening-medic-as-transphobic/

It's the same principle. Even vulnerable, young snd/or gay people are not allowed to discern someone's sex.

That's shocking. Apart from anything else, imagine having your perfectly reasonable private correspondence publicly used as an example of supposed horrible bigotry. I think that would be quite violating in itself.

FannyCann · 20/10/2024 09:31

sashh · 20/10/2024 04:00

If you are a member of your local library you can get free access to Press reader so you can read any newspaper FOC.
I only found this out last week.

I never knew. I will look into it. Thank you.

FannyCann · 20/10/2024 09:39

"In a written statement submitted in her defence, the girl said she had become “confused” about the participation of the trans player during the match in question due to the latter “wearing jewellery and sunglasses” and not being in opposition kit."

Why was this man not wearing kit? Wouldn't anyone be confused whether he was a member of the team. The article also says he was one of two transgender players. Not much has been said about the other one, presumably because no one questioned his presence on the team. But since he appears to have been readily identified as another transgender player it seems reasonable to assume he was also many in presentation, perhaps he's left the jewellery and lipstick at home.

The team also seems to make a lot of complaints, presumably having attracted questions in previous occasions.

"In this case, the football team with the trans players (there was more than one) has allegedly made eight different complaints to the FA in the past three years. That’s a lot of policing but eventually women will get the message."

Women's teams need to know which this team is and boycott all games against it.

TheDowagerCountessofPembroke · 20/10/2024 10:05

"In a written statement submitted in her defence, the girl said she had become “confused” about the participation of the trans player during the match in question due to the latter “wearing jewellery and sunglasses” and not being in opposition kit."

So she sees someone on the pitch of a women’s football match who isn’t in kit, is wearing sunglasses and is clearly male because they have a beard, not knowing that they were a member of the opposing team seems a very reasonable assumption.

Szygy · 20/10/2024 10:34

FannyCann · 20/10/2024 09:31

I never knew. I will look into it. Thank you.

Sorry for the sidebar but I discovered this only a couple of weeks ago too - however, the Times doesn’t seem to be available through PressReader, or maybe that’s just something to do with my library.

Back on topic: 'In a written statement submitted in her defence' - what is this? An actual TRIAL now? Jesus wept.

EasternStandard · 20/10/2024 10:42

A written statement?

This is so oppressive. Can you imagine that this is a fact but cannot be said. Write why this other fact was said not denied. Orwell meets McCarthy but for children

ImustLearn2Cook · 20/10/2024 11:53

I just want to share something (a small part of what she wrote) that J.K Rowling wrote that, while not specific to trans women in sports, I think highlights the issue.

J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues

https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

I happen to know a self-described transsexual woman who’s older than I am and wonderful. Although she’s open about her past as a gay man, I’ve always found it hard to think of her as anything other than a woman, and I believe (and certainly hope) she’s completely happy to have transitioned. Being older, though, she went through a long and rigorous process of evaluation, psychotherapy and staged transformation. The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass. A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law. Many people aren’t aware of this.
We’re living through the most misogynistic period I’ve experienced. Back in the 80s, I imagined that my future daughters, should I have any, would have it far better than I ever did, but between the backlash against feminism and a porn-saturated online culture, I believe things have got significantly worse for girls. Never have I seen women denigrated and dehumanised to the extent they are now. From the leader of the free world’s long history of sexual assault accusations and his proud boast of ‘grabbing them by the pussy’, to the incel (‘involuntarily celibate’) movement that rages against women who won’t give them sex, to the trans activists who declare that TERFs need punching and re-educating, men across the political spectrum seem to agree: women are asking for trouble. Everywhere, women are being told to shut up and sit down, or else.

J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues - J.K. Rowling

Warning: The below content is not appropriate for children. Please check with an adult before you read this page. To go back to the children’s page, please click here. This isn’t an easy piece to write, for reasons that will shortly become clear, but I...

https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/10/2024 12:05

EasternStandard · 20/10/2024 10:42

A written statement?

This is so oppressive. Can you imagine that this is a fact but cannot be said. Write why this other fact was said not denied. Orwell meets McCarthy but for children

Yes. We need to keep highlighting this. The only way this is enforced is by all the useful idiots in orgs like the FA allowing their organisations (and women's sport ffs) to be weaponised by men insisting they're women against all the evidence.
Fear, bullying, intimidation, coercion, control, manipulation of language, dismissal of rationality & facts along with continual threats. Threats to lose your team place, your job, your friends, your family, your reputation and anything else you prize.

All because you won't state that men are women when they say they are.

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