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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girl with suspected autism faces 12-match ban for asking transgender opponent: ‘Are you a man?’

152 replies

rooshoe · 18/10/2024 18:20

m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/teenage-girl-17-with-suspected-autism-faces-12-match-ban-for-asking-transgender-opponent-are-you-a-man/a1896883124.html

It's in the Telegraph too but that's behind a paywall - has anyone covered this on here already?

I have girls (the female kind) who play this and other 'boy' sports. I'm so worried. To even question the situation could mean severe punishment. What is wrong with this world?!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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MelodyMalone · 18/10/2024 20:50

I used to work with adults with learning disabilities in residential care and there were a couple of people who were highly prone to asking embarrassing questions in very loud voices. "Are you a man?" would have been a very likely question in such a scenario.

I dread to think how some of these fragile little flowers would deal with that - call the police, probably.

Myalternate · 18/10/2024 20:50

Stefanodad

Let’s simplify the story. 🤔

Girl asks if player is trans.
Girl is banned from the next 12 matches because she asked a question.

What could possibly have occurred to warrant such a punishment?

OuterSpaceCadet · 18/10/2024 20:58

It's not prejudice to think girls competitive football shouldn't contain boys or men.

I doubt the newspaper would be reporting on an informal kick about. Regardless, even if it was informal, I'm unsure why the safety of the girls is any less important?

Amateur sport is of no less value than elite sport.

Sure not all men would use their entire strength against women in a football match. If no men could control themselves against weaker humans they'd never be coaches or pe teachers! However this man was clearly not known to the girl, hence her question. Men who abuse their strength and status over women don't always announce their intention first. (Actually they kind of do sometimes, by crossing boundaries, but we educate girls to ignore this).

Of course girls can be vicious in sport! Was that at question? But girls are physically weaker than boys and men. That's why women's sport exists; for fair competition and safety.

Women's sport doesn't include weak men, men past their athletic best, men who declare a special identity. Male sport includes these men. It's not women who need to work on their prejudice.

Stefanodad · 18/10/2024 21:00

Maybe.

But the lack of journalism in the article, my own lived experience of the world, and the knowledge that playing to people’s outrage sells papers leads me to think that there is more to this. Had the journalist said something about the nature of the league, the findings of the board that gave the ban, the ages and make up of the rest of the teams. The motivation of the mother to make this national news etc. I’d be more inclined to take it at face value.

maltravers · 18/10/2024 21:06

Stefanodad · 18/10/2024 20:36

To be fair though the article is designed to illicit this response. There’s no effort to see the story from any other perspective.

I play football (informally) against girls (I’m a man) and I’m not a threat to their safety because I’m not interested in hurting anyone. I’m interested in us enjoying ourselves.

it’s a 17year old playing against an adult (perhaps an 18year old, the journalist isn’t interested in reporting that) which happens all the time.

Additionally competitive girls football can be vicious without the inclusion of males at least it can be around where I live.

the ‘scandal’ here is about the over reaction to an innocent and valid question and the article does very little to get to the bottom of who’s at fault here.

Sorry to have an alternative opinion (I do think their are problems with trans inclusion in some sorting contexts) but I think this article as about stoking prejudice.

Do the girls also “enjoy” adult males playing with them? How have you consulted them in this?

Stefanodad · 18/10/2024 21:07

“Of course girls can be vicious in sport! Was that at question? But girls are physically weaker than boys and men. That's why women's sport exists; for fair competition and safety.“

Very good point.

But the FA oversees many different types of league including mixed ones and ones intended to be inclusive in all kinds of ways. We just don’t know anything about this.

The article is driven by the mother who is upset (without whom Insuspect we wouldn’t know about any of this). We all fight our kids battles sometimes and we aren’t always in the right.

maltravers · 18/10/2024 21:10

Stefanodad · 18/10/2024 21:00

Maybe.

But the lack of journalism in the article, my own lived experience of the world, and the knowledge that playing to people’s outrage sells papers leads me to think that there is more to this. Had the journalist said something about the nature of the league, the findings of the board that gave the ban, the ages and make up of the rest of the teams. The motivation of the mother to make this national news etc. I’d be more inclined to take it at face value.

the writer is a Telegraph journalist and its a legitimate story even if you don’t like it. But do tell us more about your lived experience as a man of where girls’ rights should start and end.

EasternStandard · 18/10/2024 21:11

Stefanodad · 18/10/2024 21:00

Maybe.

But the lack of journalism in the article, my own lived experience of the world, and the knowledge that playing to people’s outrage sells papers leads me to think that there is more to this. Had the journalist said something about the nature of the league, the findings of the board that gave the ban, the ages and make up of the rest of the teams. The motivation of the mother to make this national news etc. I’d be more inclined to take it at face value.

Why would asking the question of anyone be worth a ban?

Needanewname42 · 18/10/2024 21:28

Zero point in having a female category of sports if its full of stronger males.

@Stefanodad how do you feel about cheats and drugs in sports?

Because what you are doing is cheating and to me is exactly the same as cheating with steroids etc.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 18/10/2024 21:38

That’s terrible but well done to the girl and her mum.

rooshoe · 18/10/2024 21:58

@Stefanodad if wherever/whatever you play the females are fully informed and consenting to mixed sex football then fine. That is not the same as playing in a female team in a female league. Identifying a man as a potential risk/safety threat would strongly suggest the situation is the latter. Females should absolutely be free to question situations where they have not consented to be in the presence of males. No one should be subjected to upholding someone else's personal fiction; regardless of how comfortable/normal/happy/relaxed/accepted/safe that fiction makes them feel. Women do not exist to accessorise and reinforce men's delusions.
It is appalling she has to even excuse away her question with her autism. The man needs to grow the fuck up and get out of female football.

OP posts:
Stefanodad · 18/10/2024 22:05

“Why would asking the question of anyone be worth a ban?“

I don’t think it would be. Which is why I’m doubting we have the full story.

”the writer is a Telegraph journalist and its a legitimate story even if you don’t like it. But do tell us more about your lived experience as a man of where girls’ rights should start and end.”

All kinds of news orgs that should have known better ran the “Litter-Trays-in Classrooms” story too which turned out to be nonsense.

My lived experience is not to do with trying to undermine womens’ experience but about the decision making processes of organisations I’m sceptical (rightly or wrongly) that this is the kind of decision that would get made without a whole heap of context that, I reiterate, we haven’t the privilege of.

when I played with and against women and girls (and men and disabled people) it was in a community 5-a-side tournament intended to bring people together for fun. This kind of sport exists too.

listen I just wanted to present another view on this thread. I’m going to bed now. I’ll come back for a look tomorrow. but I don’t mean to get involved where I’m not welcome.

goodnight.

Education1870 · 18/10/2024 22:07

outdamnedspots · 18/10/2024 19:41

That autistic people know damn well what sex someone is, and don't like being lied to?

As an autistic women, yes this the exact point. I genuinely feel for our young girls (especially autistic) ones who are being tormented with this. They are not able to have safe spaces of their own any longer.

bathofbeans · 18/10/2024 22:09

Biological men should not be in womens or girls teams.

It's a fucking joke

When is this stupidity going to end?

😡

ErrolTheDragon · 18/10/2024 22:11

“I raised a concern about the risk of serious injury as a 17-year-old girl playing against a biological male who was much larger than me and a very physical player, which was possibly a safety issue, as I did not want to get dangerously injured right before the start of the new season.

Not sure what other 'perspective' is needed on this.
'kick it out' need to kick out discrimination against women and girls, but it's ingrained in the FA I fear.

tellmesomethingtrue · 18/10/2024 22:36

Stefanodad · 18/10/2024 20:36

To be fair though the article is designed to illicit this response. There’s no effort to see the story from any other perspective.

I play football (informally) against girls (I’m a man) and I’m not a threat to their safety because I’m not interested in hurting anyone. I’m interested in us enjoying ourselves.

it’s a 17year old playing against an adult (perhaps an 18year old, the journalist isn’t interested in reporting that) which happens all the time.

Additionally competitive girls football can be vicious without the inclusion of males at least it can be around where I live.

the ‘scandal’ here is about the over reaction to an innocent and valid question and the article does very little to get to the bottom of who’s at fault here.

Sorry to have an alternative opinion (I do think their are problems with trans inclusion in some sorting contexts) but I think this article as about stoking prejudice.

Do you play against girls, or women?

Grammarnut · 18/10/2024 22:37

DisappearingGirl · 18/10/2024 18:46

"It is also a common trait that people with autism can struggle to recognise gender."

What does that mean? That autistic people are more likely to call a male a male?

I think so. Mind, most of us recognise a male when we see one.

Faffertea · 18/10/2024 22:47

Perhaps you’d like to start a new thread @Stefanodad about your thoughts on playing football with girls as an adult man.
This thread is about the way a teenage girl who is in the process of being assessed for autism appears to be facing a ban from playing for her team because she asked an opposing player who appeared to have male characteristics if they were a man.

What are your thoughts on this girl facing this sanction for asking a question/questions?

maltravers · 18/10/2024 23:18

What are your thoughts on XY people/men/TW playing in women’s leagues as women @Stefanodad ? Do women and girls have the right to (1) question this (2) object to this?

BettyBooper · 19/10/2024 00:24

Stefanodad · 18/10/2024 22:05

“Why would asking the question of anyone be worth a ban?“

I don’t think it would be. Which is why I’m doubting we have the full story.

”the writer is a Telegraph journalist and its a legitimate story even if you don’t like it. But do tell us more about your lived experience as a man of where girls’ rights should start and end.”

All kinds of news orgs that should have known better ran the “Litter-Trays-in Classrooms” story too which turned out to be nonsense.

My lived experience is not to do with trying to undermine womens’ experience but about the decision making processes of organisations I’m sceptical (rightly or wrongly) that this is the kind of decision that would get made without a whole heap of context that, I reiterate, we haven’t the privilege of.

when I played with and against women and girls (and men and disabled people) it was in a community 5-a-side tournament intended to bring people together for fun. This kind of sport exists too.

listen I just wanted to present another view on this thread. I’m going to bed now. I’ll come back for a look tomorrow. but I don’t mean to get involved where I’m not welcome.

goodnight.

All your experience is 'lived'. What other experience do you possibly have? This terminology needs putting in the bin.

goldenshred · 19/10/2024 03:57

Wtf!

I wonder what changing room they use?

That poor girl.

goldenshred · 19/10/2024 03:58

BettyBooper · 19/10/2024 00:24

All your experience is 'lived'. What other experience do you possibly have? This terminology needs putting in the bin.

Quite right Betty. Along with men who can't leave girls alone

hholiday · 19/10/2024 07:05

Stefanodad · 18/10/2024 20:36

To be fair though the article is designed to illicit this response. There’s no effort to see the story from any other perspective.

I play football (informally) against girls (I’m a man) and I’m not a threat to their safety because I’m not interested in hurting anyone. I’m interested in us enjoying ourselves.

it’s a 17year old playing against an adult (perhaps an 18year old, the journalist isn’t interested in reporting that) which happens all the time.

Additionally competitive girls football can be vicious without the inclusion of males at least it can be around where I live.

the ‘scandal’ here is about the over reaction to an innocent and valid question and the article does very little to get to the bottom of who’s at fault here.

Sorry to have an alternative opinion (I do think their are problems with trans inclusion in some sorting contexts) but I think this article as about stoking prejudice.

I agree the article is designed to elicit a reaction. So is all journalism, regardless of whether the news organisation is reporting on a bombing of a hospital in Gaza or what Rachel Reeves may or may not do in the budget. It’s a fine line between what you call stoking prejudice and informing people what’s going on in the world. Sometimes, as you say, more details emerge about a story that undermine it - ie it’s not quite as bad as it seemed at first glance.

But what we generally find on this board is that, in stories of this nature, the more facts that emerge, the more serious and shocking the story becomes. This is because misogyny is so embedded and accepted within society that when you stand back and look at what is actually happening, the truth of how badly women and girls are treated day to day is shocking.

As you say, that might not be the case in this particular story. The telegraph will has probably been motivated to report it because they were hoping for a reaction like those generated here and on their comments board - ie an outpouring of sympathy and support for the teenage girl and her mum.

But are those reactions wrong? I mean, the telegraph has done its journalism. The reporter hasn’t just taken the mum’s word for it - there is paperwork to back up what she says. They have also gone to the club and the county FA for a response. Either organisation could have contradicted the story or said - as you have done - that it’s not what it seems. But that’s not what has been said. Indeed, there’s going to be a hearing , where more details are likely to emerge. That in itself seems to support the seriousness of the mum’s allegations.

Furthermore, the telegraph’s reasons for not giving further details at this stage are to do with protecting the identity of a vulnerable child (and possibly the other players). That’s a perfectly valid and commendable reason.

overall, on this board we are looking to listen and support women and girls whose stories of male dominance and aggression too often go overlooked and unheard. I doubt this story will even be reported , for example, by the guardian- and probably the bbc. And this board is one of the few places in life where we get to share, offer support (sometimes quite instrumental support) and analyse such stories. We’re not idiots - we do look at sources, we are perfectly aware that it’s the right wing media that are reporting stories on women’s versus trans rights that the left aren’t touching. But that doesn’t make them wrong. Our ‘lived experience’ is that women’s voices aren’t being heard or taken seriously by society so this is where we give them airtime.
You may choose not to listen or not to take this girl, her mum or us seriously. But bear in mind, the reason you don’t have to do so is your male privilege - you get that choice. At the very least, it makes for a refreshing change to hear from a teenage girl in a news story, doesn’t it? The vast, vast majority of the time teenage girls make the news headlines is because they are the victims of some horrific act of male violence. So it’s good to hear they have voices and opinions- even if those are things some / a lot of men don’t necessarily want to hear.

SinnerBoy · 19/10/2024 07:43

hholiday · Today 07:05

What an excellent post, particularly about how, when these stories run, more and more details emerge, presenting the girls and women in ever more favourable, sympathetic light; and increasingly less for the man with gender.

borntobequiet · 19/10/2024 08:55

When your own lived experience of the world blinds you to others’, it’s time to re-evaluate what you have learned from it.

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