Page 28 | NHS Fife tries to silence nurse

Hoardasurass · 2024-10-13T08:36:40+00:00

So as has been mentioned on threads about the Darlington nurses a nurse is sueing NHS Fife over its trans staff policy. The poor nurse was forced to get changed infront of a man in the female changing facilities, when she complained about it she was 1st told to change in a cupboard if she didn't like it, then they tried to bully her into swapping shifts so she didn't work with the man in question (she wouldn't), then they wanted her to move hospital (again she refused) so then they suspended her without pay for months until her solicitor got involved and now they are trying to gag her by insisting that the court case (starts in February) must be held in secret (I wonder why) and will be in crt next month asking to restrict reporting on the case. This case is really important in Scotland because the trans staff policy that's going on trial in this case is the Scottish government's own policy used in all public sector organisations in Scotland and works on self id. So when this case is won it will finally kill the Scottish government's self id policy in all public bodies [[https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/nhs-fife-fights-secret-hearings-33877891 https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/nhs-fife-fights-secret-hearings-33877891?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar]]

Shortshriftandlethal · 03/02/2025 19:23

BananaAppleOrange · 03/02/2025 18:54

Shaking with rage, no doubt, that they are no getting their way.

If I was Sandie Peggie I'd be shaking with rage too........However, Dr Upton's turn will come soon enough. I'm assuming he too has to take the stand?

I find this absolutely incredible...the whole thing.....that people can be wilfully acting in support of the violation of women's dignity and think they are the good guys. 😡

Anothercoffeeafter3 · 03/02/2025 19:27

Bannedontherun · 03/02/2025 17:17

Just thinking out loud, my first question for Dr Upton would be why do you use a changing room designated for females?

And if he said because he is a woman …. That my cause him problems as one could press him further on the whole issue of affirmation.

He can hardly reply he would feel unsafe in the male changing room as one would have to believe then that other doctors might beat him up, or be otherwise abusive.

NC is far smarter than me but i have a feeling she will go there.

She identifies as a female I would also be interested to hear if she has had any gender affirming surgery which means she prefers to be in the female changing room as that is now her body type.

The nurse says she uncomfortable changing in front of men but the Dr could also be uncomfortable. It's impossible to please everyone!

It's also a mental health risk if you say to Beth I'm sorry your medical condition (gender dysphoria) means less than someone's embarrassment. The case would then be her suing the trust.

Unfortunately the NHS is not immune to having judgemental people who may not be supportive of Beth's life choices. Most hospitals have other changing rooms available which the nurse could have used. I would say it's the person with the issue who moves so if Beth won't get changed infront of Sandie - Beth moves.

The need to use male pronouns stinks of her refusing to accept someone else's beliefs she could have used doctor or they. Tho from the evidence it looks like she also ignored her in work which is never acceptable.

Shortshriftandlethal · 03/02/2025 19:27

guinnessguzzler · 03/02/2025 18:25

It's just so ridiculous. An actual doctor. You really couldn't make it up.

I think a lot of the automatic respect which doctors were once accorded has diminshed in recent times. Many are just not very good at their job...not suited to the role; some are downright negligent. They are just human like the rest of us...with all that entails.

Harassedevictee · 03/02/2025 19:27

The sound wasn’t brilliant but reading TT the rough timeline was:

08/23 First time encountered DU in CR
28/11/23 possible conversation in CR
23/12/23 conversation in CR
30/12/23 next shift but suspended
01/01/24 suspension extended
04/01/24 phone call to attend meeting
05/01/24 meeting - suspended, work badge deactivated
07/01/24? letter confirming suspension
02/02/24 letter extending suspension
end of 02/24 given a copy of complaint
12/04/24 letter about investigation interview
30/08/24 investigation interview
14/10/24 further investigation interview
12/24 received investigation report

It took 12 months from complaint to report being finalised - that is a very long time by any standards. This was not what I would call a big or complicated grievance in terms of number of witnesses, alleged number of incidents etc.

The BBC article states - The nurse's claim is disputed by NHS Fife, which has described the case as unnecessary and vexatious.

No way does this come anywhere near being vexatious.

Shortshriftandlethal · 03/02/2025 19:30

Anothercoffeeafter3 · 03/02/2025 19:27

She identifies as a female I would also be interested to hear if she has had any gender affirming surgery which means she prefers to be in the female changing room as that is now her body type.

The nurse says she uncomfortable changing in front of men but the Dr could also be uncomfortable. It's impossible to please everyone!

It's also a mental health risk if you say to Beth I'm sorry your medical condition (gender dysphoria) means less than someone's embarrassment. The case would then be her suing the trust.

Unfortunately the NHS is not immune to having judgemental people who may not be supportive of Beth's life choices. Most hospitals have other changing rooms available which the nurse could have used. I would say it's the person with the issue who moves so if Beth won't get changed infront of Sandie - Beth moves.

The need to use male pronouns stinks of her refusing to accept someone else's beliefs she could have used doctor or they. Tho from the evidence it looks like she also ignored her in work which is never acceptable.

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Fannying around trying to cater to someone's luxury beliefs is not acceptable. Plain truth is required , and certainly when it comes to a court of law. Dr Upton is a male person...otherwise known as a man. No matter what surgery he has. And it seems very clear that he cares not one bit about the comfort or discomfort of the women whose boundaries he is knowingly invading.

How can you, seriously, come on a board for women and spout such stuff?

SinnerBoy · 03/02/2025 19:37

Anothercoffeeafter3 · Today 19:27

What an absolute parcel of shite and DARVO on steroids. Did you mistake MN for Reddit?

OldCrone · 03/02/2025 19:42

Anothercoffeeafter3 · 03/02/2025 19:27

She identifies as a female I would also be interested to hear if she has had any gender affirming surgery which means she prefers to be in the female changing room as that is now her body type.

The nurse says she uncomfortable changing in front of men but the Dr could also be uncomfortable. It's impossible to please everyone!

It's also a mental health risk if you say to Beth I'm sorry your medical condition (gender dysphoria) means less than someone's embarrassment. The case would then be her suing the trust.

Unfortunately the NHS is not immune to having judgemental people who may not be supportive of Beth's life choices. Most hospitals have other changing rooms available which the nurse could have used. I would say it's the person with the issue who moves so if Beth won't get changed infront of Sandie - Beth moves.

The need to use male pronouns stinks of her refusing to accept someone else's beliefs she could have used doctor or they. Tho from the evidence it looks like she also ignored her in work which is never acceptable.

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She identifies as a female I would also be interested to hear if she has had any gender affirming surgery which means she prefers to be in the female changing room as that is now her body type.

A male who has had cosmetic surgery does not have a female body type. He has a male body type altered by cosmetic surgery. A penis which has been inverted to form a cavity is not something any woman has.

The nurse says she uncomfortable changing in front of men but the Dr could also be uncomfortable. It's impossible to please everyone!

If the doctor is uncomfortable around other males, he could ask for a separate changing room. Being uncomfortable around others of his sex doesn't give him a right to use the women's changing room.

Unfortunately the NHS is not immune to having judgemental people who may not be supportive of Beth's life choices.

Nobody cares about Beth's life choices. But men should not have the choice to use women's changing rooms.

Most hospitals have other changing rooms available which the nurse could have used.

Most hospitals have other changing rooms available which the doctor could have used, since he is uncomfortable about using the ones appropriate for his sex. And by other changing rooms I don't mean the women's one.

FranticFrankie · 03/02/2025 19:44

No another coffee just no!
It’s not about ‘the one with the issue’ that moves.
Did you miss the memo about women having rights? You’re suggesting that a WOMAN moves out of a WOMEN’S changing room to accommodate a MAN??? One doesn’t have to accept another’s beliefs because they are exactly that- beliefs.
FFS be off with you and your ponderings on whether DrU has had any gender affirming surgery- how very transphobic of you. You surely know that the trans lobby says this is not necessary???????

GCITC · 03/02/2025 19:46

Anothercoffeeafter3 · 03/02/2025 19:27

She identifies as a female I would also be interested to hear if she has had any gender affirming surgery which means she prefers to be in the female changing room as that is now her body type.

The nurse says she uncomfortable changing in front of men but the Dr could also be uncomfortable. It's impossible to please everyone!

It's also a mental health risk if you say to Beth I'm sorry your medical condition (gender dysphoria) means less than someone's embarrassment. The case would then be her suing the trust.

Unfortunately the NHS is not immune to having judgemental people who may not be supportive of Beth's life choices. Most hospitals have other changing rooms available which the nurse could have used. I would say it's the person with the issue who moves so if Beth won't get changed infront of Sandie - Beth moves.

The need to use male pronouns stinks of her refusing to accept someone else's beliefs she could have used doctor or they. Tho from the evidence it looks like she also ignored her in work which is never acceptable.

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Dr. Upton could refer to themselves as he or a man. Dr. Upton not doing so stinks of Dr. Upton refusing to accept someone else's beliefs. The argument goes both ways

I kind of wish Sandie had accepted another area to change. I'm sure the other intimidated women would have started using that space instead. I wonder how long it would be before that would be classed as bullying the doctor by excluding them from that space.

Signalbox · 03/02/2025 19:46

GCITC · 03/02/2025 18:57

I don't believe so. It's difficult as things move around as the questioning of witnesses may take longer or shorter than predicted.

If it's the same as in England, others called for the claimant will go and then its over to the defence and their witnesses.

I think we will probably get through the rest of Russell's cross examination tomorrow.

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Wouldn’t we hear from the rest of the Claimant’s witnesses first?

OldCrone · 03/02/2025 19:49

It's also a mental health risk if you say to Beth I'm sorry your medical condition (gender dysphoria) means less than someone's embarrassment.

Unfortunately the NHS is not immune to having judgemental people who may not be supportive of Beth's life choices.

@Anothercoffeeafter3 Can you clarify what you mean by these two apparently contradictory statements?

Is Beth's trans identity a medical condition or a lifestyle choice?

GCITC · 03/02/2025 19:51

Signalbox · 03/02/2025 19:46

Wouldn’t we hear from the rest of the Claimant’s witnesses first?

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Yes.

Claimant
Witnesses for the claimant.
Witnesses for the defence.

PoshCoffee · 03/02/2025 19:52

@Anothercoffeeafter3 I would say it's the person with the issue who moves so if Beth won't get changed infront of Sandie - Beth moves.

Can you explain why you think it’s appropriate to make women leave their own changing room?

Scout2016 · 03/02/2025 19:54

I don't understand what merit there was I making Sandie recount being assaulted when younger. Would it not have been sufficient to say she was a previous victim of assault and leave it at that?

The whole "on Wednesday she didn't make eye contact with me" just sounds really teenage and petty. Just desperate. Is that the benchmark? "Dear diary, Sandie was weird with me today. I haven't even sexually assaulted her but she still won't get changed together." You're at work Dr Upton, she doesn't have to hang out chatting with you. Especially when your own behaviour has made your lack of respect for her very plain indeed.

TWETMIRF · 03/02/2025 19:58

Well A&E is known for being a place where there's lots of downtime for the staff to sit around and have a good chitchat. How awful of her not to make sure that she specifically made time for one particular doctor

FannyCann · 03/02/2025 19:58

Hmm. So a subtle signalling of support for the TRAs?

Looks far from subtle to me.
It's clearly intentional, and one wonders how much planning went into it - buying two scarves in the relevant colours to have at the ready. The BBC really are sickening.

Justabaker · 03/02/2025 20:02

Mmmnotsure · 03/02/2025 15:42

We are onto the some people wouldn't know if Dr U is a man or not and that you can't always tell argument from Dr U's barrister.

And that women might be challenged even though they are actually female.

But the problem there is, Why should men be allowed access to women's spaces if they are good at deception.

Jane Russell - Dr U's barrister - was basically saying 'be nice and get your tits out so you don't hurt the nice doctor's fee fees'.

Sorry, it was a long day tweeting and I've some gin since.

DuesToTheDirt · 03/02/2025 20:05

Anothercoffeeafter3 · 03/02/2025 19:27

She identifies as a female I would also be interested to hear if she has had any gender affirming surgery which means she prefers to be in the female changing room as that is now her body type.

The nurse says she uncomfortable changing in front of men but the Dr could also be uncomfortable. It's impossible to please everyone!

It's also a mental health risk if you say to Beth I'm sorry your medical condition (gender dysphoria) means less than someone's embarrassment. The case would then be her suing the trust.

Unfortunately the NHS is not immune to having judgemental people who may not be supportive of Beth's life choices. Most hospitals have other changing rooms available which the nurse could have used. I would say it's the person with the issue who moves so if Beth won't get changed infront of Sandie - Beth moves.

The need to use male pronouns stinks of her refusing to accept someone else's beliefs she could have used doctor or they. Tho from the evidence it looks like she also ignored her in work which is never acceptable.

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Then the single transwoman could change in a toilet, or a cupboard - rather than the many women being displaced into said cupboard.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2025 20:07

FannyCann · 03/02/2025 19:58

Hmm. So a subtle signalling of support for the TRAs?

Looks far from subtle to me.
It's clearly intentional, and one wonders how much planning went into it - buying two scarves in the relevant colours to have at the ready. The BBC really are sickening.

It doesn't seem to have placated anyone on r/transgenderuk, who as pp mentioned earlier are talking about how harassed they feel by her use of male pronouns. ISTR Lorna was quite reasonable on Women's Hour reporting on the ERCC case.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2025 20:10

Jane Russell - Dr U's barrister - was basically saying 'be nice and get your tits out so you don't hurt the nice doctor's fee fees'.

Jane Russell has a lot of previous, she was respondent's counsel or junior counsel in both the Forstater and Bailey cases.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2025 20:10

If Maya Forstater is a witness, I guess she'll have to cross examine her again, will be interesting!

Datun · 03/02/2025 20:16

That Reddit thread should be compulsory reading for the tribunal judge

BananaAppleOrange · 03/02/2025 20:20

I thought it telling that when SP raised the matter they didn’t consult HR or their in-house legal counsel, they consulted their DEI group of vested interests.

guinnessguzzler · 03/02/2025 20:26

Totally agree about doctors in general @Shortshriftandlethal but I'd still hope they would at least understand that there are basic biological differences between a woman and a transwoman.

CocoapuffPuff · 03/02/2025 20:31

Anothercoffeeafter3 · 03/02/2025 19:27

She identifies as a female I would also be interested to hear if she has had any gender affirming surgery which means she prefers to be in the female changing room as that is now her body type.

The nurse says she uncomfortable changing in front of men but the Dr could also be uncomfortable. It's impossible to please everyone!

It's also a mental health risk if you say to Beth I'm sorry your medical condition (gender dysphoria) means less than someone's embarrassment. The case would then be her suing the trust.

Unfortunately the NHS is not immune to having judgemental people who may not be supportive of Beth's life choices. Most hospitals have other changing rooms available which the nurse could have used. I would say it's the person with the issue who moves so if Beth won't get changed infront of Sandie - Beth moves.

The need to use male pronouns stinks of her refusing to accept someone else's beliefs she could have used doctor or they. Tho from the evidence it looks like she also ignored her in work which is never acceptable.

Show quote history

I'm actually embarrassed for you.