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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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233
AlisonDonut · 16/10/2024 21:23

Bannedontherun · 16/10/2024 19:50

@AlisonDonut I have some of that modelling clay that dries naturally do you mind if I copy your design for myself.

Obvs it will be a worm pot 😀

Ha ha. Please do!

inkymoose · 17/10/2024 00:07

Boiledbeetle · 16/10/2024 20:28

A snake eating itself seems to be a bit hit and miss!

I had a go with the AI, but quite frankly it was beaten into a cocked hat by the ancient Egyptians - the AI could not produce an actual ouroubos. It did kind of circling snakes but they could not eat their own tail.
The caption for the ancient Egyptian image is: Horus child on a solar disk enveloped by an ouroboros resting on the lions of Akhet (Dama-Heroub papyrus, Dynasty 21)

Bluestockings & Orange Wellies: Welcome to the Degu Station!
Bluestockings & Orange Wellies: Welcome to the Degu Station!
AlisonDonut · 17/10/2024 08:06

Not going to lie, I want this top...I want it in the grey and I want it to come down halfway between my arse and knees.

ETA: I'm not going to ask why she is sat ON a potters wheel or why she is facing away from the other wheel.

Bluestockings & Orange Wellies: Welcome to the Degu Station!
SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 17/10/2024 12:47

Good afternoon, lovely Bluestockings! As always, I am in awe of your AI skills - I don't even know where to start.

It is a grey, cloudy day in Scotland, and I'm sure there will be rain soon, so I'll be over by the fire with an enormous cup of coffee and my knitting. Ds1's second sweater is taking far longer than it should - I am suffering from a bit of can't-be-bothered-itis. But I have got a pattern for blankets for the twins, and I've chosen a toy to knit for dh for Christmas (a daft tradition of ours). I found a pattern for a lion that looks exactly like Parsley the Lion, from the Herbs, apart from the mane not being green, so I've bought green and yellow yarn, and he's getting Parsley.

I've decided to do blankets in squares of different aran patterns, in cream - if I wait until my lovely DIL is 20 weeks, and we know what flavour of babies she is having, I'm afraid I won't have enough time to finish the blankets I wanted to do. I'm going to put a different coloured edging on each blanket, so they can tell them apart.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 17/10/2024 12:50

Magpiecomplex · 16/10/2024 20:22

Not noticeably! He seems to be able to differentiate between cakes and "cakes".

Well, that's good. I had visions of him being at someone else's house, host/ess approaches him with a plate of goodies saying, "Would you like a cake, Mr Magpie?" & he knocks the plate out of their hands, leaps up with a strangled cry of horror & runs out of the house.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 17/10/2024 12:51

I've decided to do blankets in squares of different aran patterns, in cream - if I wait until my lovely DIL is 20 weeks, and we know what flavour of babies she is having, I'm afraid I won't have enough time to finish the blankets I wanted to do. I'm going to put a different coloured edging on each blanket, so they can tell them apart.

Sounds lovely...and of course babies don't need colour-coding by sex anyway!Grin

ifIwerenotanandroid · 17/10/2024 13:05

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius More proof that AI isn't as good as humans: if I said 'scottish octopus knitting 4 different things' we can all see it, can't we? AI can't, even when I spell it out referencing tentacles. Here are some of the results.

Your knitting dedication is amazing, btw.

Bluestockings & Orange Wellies: Welcome to the Degu Station!
Bluestockings & Orange Wellies: Welcome to the Degu Station!
Bluestockings & Orange Wellies: Welcome to the Degu Station!
Bluestockings & Orange Wellies: Welcome to the Degu Station!
OP posts:
SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 17/10/2024 13:17

Ohhh I love those, @ifIwerenotanandroid - you are so clever!

ifIwerenotanandroid · 17/10/2024 13:25

Not really - I'm unable to control the AI & make it do what I want it to! And I hadn't even realised what was odd about Alison's 'TERF' picture.

What worries me is that I'd bet it won't be a case of 'the AI isn't perfect so we can't let it run things' but 'the AI isn't perfect but it means we save money on lots of salaries, so meh'.

OP posts:
DeanElderberry · 17/10/2024 13:29

On which point, I'm quite relieved that the AI is still unable to work out the nature of the relationship between the knitter, the knitting needles, the wool, and the knitted item.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 17/10/2024 13:32

Trudat, @ifIwerenotanandroid.

What worries me is that, if the AI does bugger things up, the humans may not have the necessary knowledge to notice that the AI has buggered up.

My dad was a maths teacher and most of his career was in the pre-calculators era, so he was good at doing mental maths and estimating the answer to a sum - so if the calculator gave him a radically different answer, he knew to recheck it. But his younger colleagues and the pupils tended to rely blindly on the calculator's answer and had no way of knowing if it was wrong. The AI thing is just a bigger version of this, is my worry.

inkymoose · 17/10/2024 14:43

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 17/10/2024 13:32

Trudat, @ifIwerenotanandroid.

What worries me is that, if the AI does bugger things up, the humans may not have the necessary knowledge to notice that the AI has buggered up.

My dad was a maths teacher and most of his career was in the pre-calculators era, so he was good at doing mental maths and estimating the answer to a sum - so if the calculator gave him a radically different answer, he knew to recheck it. But his younger colleagues and the pupils tended to rely blindly on the calculator's answer and had no way of knowing if it was wrong. The AI thing is just a bigger version of this, is my worry.

I agree with Woley, Android and Dean. This machine learning thing is insidious. A machine can never, however much it's "learned", think for itself. It uses language in a way that makes no sense. Words we use have so many diverse meanings and change according to different contexts. I don't understand how, when you request the AI to "create an image", the AI selects concepts? ideas? instructions? from what you've said. If I asked a human being to create an image of a Scottish Octopus knitting four different things at once, I'd probably get a picture of the Octopus using all eight legs to knit with, with four lots of different knitting on the go. If I asked a human to create an ouroubos, they would probably draw a circle made out of a snake with a snake eating its tail, such as in the Egyptian papyrus earlier. The AI doesn't do that. Why not? What is it about the language that I've used to make the request, and the language that the AI uses to carry out the instructions, that is so different?

One of the problems is that some people find more difficult to understand mathematical concepts and some people find it more difficult to process language or to create art. The machine learning AI purports to be doing all of these things. But it isn't doing any of them. It's just lying through its teeth and making stuff up, and when we don't like it, it says it's our fault and it doesn't want to play with us anymore.

inkymoose · 17/10/2024 15:27

Here's another AI Octopus in Scotland knitting with a lot of knitting needles but not making more than one thing

Bluestockings & Orange Wellies: Welcome to the Degu Station!
DeanElderberry · 17/10/2024 15:53

Multiple stray ends of wool unconnected to the balls, knitting needles (in one case with a needle eye) at odd angles unconnected to the knitting - and a little double-ended tentacle with no octopus attached.

Oh AI, what will we do with you.

MarieDeGournay · 17/10/2024 16:12

Agree totally about AI!

It's all to do with what 'intelligence' is.

Computers appear to be clever because they can do a whole load of things at great speed, but the instructions have to follow a very precise format.
AI is supposed to be a big improvement because the instructions can be anything - but they can't really, can they? they have to be instructions that make sense to AI, and clearly it has problems with things like er... knitting!

Human intelligence knows things that AI doesn't even know it doesn't know.
Like knitting needles, standard number of🙄

It's just lying through its teeth and making stuff up, and when we don't like it, it says it's our fault and it doesn't want to play with us anymore.
A bit anthropomorphic, inkymoose, but well saidSmile

inkymoose · 17/10/2024 16:29

@MarieDeGournay "It's just lying through its teeth and making stuff up, and when we don't like it, it says it's our fault and it doesn't want to play with us anymore."
A bit anthropomorphic, inkymoose, but well said

Anthropomorphic .... yes, although I think artificial intelligence is designed in order to make us think of it as some kind of creature. I had a conversation with it briefly earlier on this afternoon and asked why AI puts in extra fingers additional limbs et cetera into its images, and this is its reply:
"Ah, the quirks of AI image generation! It’s all about pattern recognition and data. AI models are trained on countless images to learn how to generate new ones, but sometimes they struggle with finer details—like the exact number of fingers or limbs. This is because the model doesn't truly "understand" anatomy like humans do; it's just recognizing patterns and filling in the blanks based on its training data. Sometimes it guesses wrong and ends up with those extra fingers or bizarre distortions.
With more refined models and better data, the accuracy of these images keeps improving, though. Funny quirks are a reminder that AI, despite its power, isn’t perfect."

Phrases such as "sometimes it guesses wrong" and "AI models are trained..." and "doesn't truly understand" imply that the artificial intelligence has some kind of body as well as the ability to calculate ... it's as if it were something you can see and talk to and train, a bit like a dog. It "learns" things, they say. But actually it doesn't actually learn anything. Large amounts of data are programmed into it. From these data it can select certain information to enable a function to be carried out, such as "Alexa turn the TV on", or "create an image of a Scottish Octopus knitting four jumpers at once".

Magpiecomplex · 17/10/2024 16:35

Knowing not to trust AI is something I'm explicitly teaching my students this year. It's fine to give you a kick start with the easy stuff, like structuring an essay, but you can't rely on it for depth or understanding, it's just a very high tech, and unreliable, parrot.

Magpiecomplex · 17/10/2024 16:38

Gemini's attempt at the Scottish octopus! Four knitted garments, but all on the same, double-ended and pointless, knitting needle.

Bluestockings & Orange Wellies: Welcome to the Degu Station!
ifIwerenotanandroid · 17/10/2024 16:39

The Dean's question is a good one: what will we do with AI? Where it's supposed to be used in place of humans, in writing or legal work or illustration, its output needs to be checked by a human (eg Woley's Dad!). At the moment we have humans who are competent to check, because they know how things ought to be done. But if AI is introduced & humans are made redundant by firms & organisations, then nobody will be learning those skills/acquiring that knowledge from the bottom up. Soon there won't be anyone left who knows what things should look like. I'm not sure I want to live in the sort of chaos that would ensue.

At what point do we give up & say it's just not good enough & won't be for 10... 20 years or more? 'With more refined models and better data, the accuracy of these images keeps improving' is not a good enough answer.

In terms of what humans know & machines don't (like the number of fingers on the average hand which could surely be programmed in, although does that mess up the swirly learning the AI does?), decades ago I read somewhere a perfect illustration of this: a computer doesn't know things we take for granted such as, if Abraham Lincoln is in Chicago, his body is there too.😂

OP posts:
ifIwerenotanandroid · 17/10/2024 16:43

So I asked it for 'a very high tech, and unreliable, parrot'...

Bluestockings & Orange Wellies: Welcome to the Degu Station!
OP posts:
inkymoose · 17/10/2024 16:46

ifIwerenotanandroid · 17/10/2024 16:43

So I asked it for 'a very high tech, and unreliable, parrot'...

So did I ... placed mine in a science lab tho, which the AI wasn't quite clear about (science labs only occur in old films, I suppose)

Bluestockings & Orange Wellies: Welcome to the Degu Station!
ifIwerenotanandroid · 17/10/2024 16:47

I gave it a few hints about what it should be doing...

Bluestockings & Orange Wellies: Welcome to the Degu Station!
Bluestockings & Orange Wellies: Welcome to the Degu Station!
Bluestockings & Orange Wellies: Welcome to the Degu Station!
OP posts:
ifIwerenotanandroid · 17/10/2024 16:48

inkymoose · 17/10/2024 16:46

So did I ... placed mine in a science lab tho, which the AI wasn't quite clear about (science labs only occur in old films, I suppose)

Ah, the African Grey. Beautiful plumage.

OP posts:
inkymoose · 17/10/2024 16:48

ifIwerenotanandroid · 17/10/2024 16:47

I gave it a few hints about what it should be doing...

Fantastic!

Bannedontherun · 17/10/2024 16:51

Very interesting discussion i have nowt to add.

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