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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kemi Badenoch

321 replies

CassieMaddox · 07/10/2024 22:47

Looking unlikely to win the Conservative leadership now and has gone very quiet about women's rights/the EA during her campaign.

Current favourite is Cleverly.

I know she had a lot of support on here so just wondering what people thought had gone wrong for her?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
TooBigForMyBoots · 18/10/2024 19:07

Why would anyone assume their critical thinking skills are all that great?

Assuming your critical thinking skills are great is the opposite of Critical Thinking.

TempestTost · 18/10/2024 23:55

TooBigForMyBoots · 18/10/2024 19:07

Why would anyone assume their critical thinking skills are all that great?

Assuming your critical thinking skills are great is the opposite of Critical Thinking.

O.

Nothing to do with what I said but par for the course I suppose.

TooBigForMyBoots · 19/10/2024 00:23

O.

TooBigForMyBoots · 19/10/2024 00:30

Equality is therefore a concept - by your own diagnosis. There is no such thing as equality - because different people and different groups have different needs and requirements. Nobody is the exact same as anyone else.

It's not exactly my diagnosis, whatever you mean by that @Shortshriftandlethal .Confused It's Equality as laid out in the Equality Act 2010. Here's an article that explains it.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/drnancydoyle/2024/10/15/kemi-badenoch-accidentally-describes-the-social-model-of-disability/

Kemi Badenoch Accidentally Describes The Social Model Of Disability

That Ms Badenoch, who was in fact the Minister of State for Women and Equalities, does not understand the basic premise of the Equality Act is alarming, to say the least.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/drnancydoyle/2024/10/15/kemi-badenoch-accidentally-describes-the-social-model-of-disability

TooBigForMyBoots · 19/10/2024 20:26

What's going on here then?Confused

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/10/16/tories-wanted-to-charge-fee-bbc-leadership-debate/

Shortshriftandlethal · 20/10/2024 09:25

TooBigForMyBoots · 19/10/2024 21:56

Is the debate not happening because Badenoch doesn't want to be questioned? Or because the Tory party can't profit from it?Confused

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cevy3jd42x8o

Edited

I imagine Badenoch rightly sees this as a matter for the members, not the general public - since it is they who will elect the new leader. Jenrick's team has been conducting a high profile media campaign, as well as attempting to smear Badenoch at every turn. Very dirty play. And that strategy hasn't worked out well for him by all accounts. He's trying to win over Reform voters and convince his own right wingers that he's the man for the job.......but he isn't. All he talks about is immigration.

The role is not PM.....the public will not be voting. The job on offer is Leader of the Opposition, whose job it will be to interrogate the government, not to formulate or implement policies. Five years is a long way off and you cannot make policies unless you know what conditions you are dealing with.

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/10/2024 12:00

They're both trying to win over Reform voters. They did show on GB News.

Shortshriftandlethal · 20/10/2024 12:52

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/10/2024 12:00

They're both trying to win over Reform voters. They did show on GB News.

I actually think what Kemi Badenoch is focusing on is re-establishing clear principles and core values -rather than policy proposals at present.

I think Jenrick's team is fundamentally misunderstanding what motivates many Reform voters. It is not simply about "stopping the boats" but about key values around family, community, responsibility and so on. Also around personal liberty.

A lot of working class people became quite radicalised during lockdown. They didn't like government telling them where they could go; what they could or could not say, or think, or what they must or must not do. They also don't believe that men can become women and they don't like Drag Queen story time. It is not just about " the boats".

And if one assumes that lots of Reform voters watch GB news then one also has to assume that they prefer what Kemi Badenoch has to say, and the way in which she says it - to Jenrick's toadying to his own shadow backbenchers - who are still obsessed with Brexit and immigration. Certainly judging by the audinece reaction. Kemi is direct, forthright and "has balls". People seem to like her straight talking and ability to grasp the fundamentals.

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/10/2024 15:29

She is the most exciting of the candidates.

GoldenPheasant · 20/10/2024 22:15

TempestTost · 16/10/2024 17:35

Your thinking about gifted kids is a good example of why people feel this has become a problem.

Because it sounds very much like you don't think that all students needs should be considered equally. In fact you said this above - the law requires that the needs of some are put above the needs of others.

It actually wouldn't matter what group, or individual, this applied to. If gifted kids were prioritized, and it would be possible to make a social argument for that, at the expense of other children, I expect you'd see that as deeply unfair.

Gifted children have needs of their own that often aren't well met through the school system. Programs to address these have largely disappeared, parents are told they need to use their own funds to compensate.

This is an issue that is going to come back to bite I suspect - thee seems to be increasing unhappiness in the population generally around special provisions. Most people like to see children (and adults) in need helped, but they don't like it when there seems to be more value put on some than others.

But we come back to the fact that no-one is putting "more value" on children with SEN. The simple fact is that society has taken the view that help should be given to children with SEN to try to put them on a par with their peers, not least because it makes so much sense in economic terms if they are helped to reach their full potential. If a child with SEN is getting more help than others in the class, it is only because it has been proved they need it, not because they are somehow more valued.

I have no issue with gifted children being helped for similar reasons, i.e. because it makes sense in societal terms. Ironically, I'm in the position of having a child with SEN who is recognised as gifted. I know which has caused him more problems.

GoldenPheasant · 20/10/2024 22:20

TempestTost · 16/10/2024 17:41

There will always be "unrecognized" needs btw. For one thing,there are always new things to learn, that's not a failure, it's just reality.

But also - not all needs have a diagnosis. The child in a class who really struggles with noise and disruption is not less valuable with the kid who can't control his behaviour and creates noise and disruption.If her parents can't afford to send her to private education,or to be transported to a school further away, why is that child less important than a child who is given transportation for a different school due to SEN?

It's not working as a system for all children.

I really don't understand the relevance of transport here. Transport is not special educational provision, it is just a mean of accessing it if the provision is not available in a school which the child can get to easily. A child who struggles with noise and disruption is likely to have sensory and possibly attention difficulties for which they are equally deserving of support. Even if they don't qualify for their own provision, one means of helping that child would be to offer support to the noisy child so that that child is fully engaged in learning and no longer disrupting the class.

If the system is not working for all children, the system needs to be changed, but the way to do that is not to portray home to school transport as some sort of luxury which should not be offered to children with SEN.

GoldenPheasant · 20/10/2024 22:26

Shortshriftandlethal · 18/10/2024 15:26

Read back over the many posts here - some very well written and with consideration. Particularly those by Tempest Tost. I''m not going to repeat things I've already wriiten about or which have already been outlined - just because you either will not acknowledge, or maybe didn't even read them in the first instance.

Edited

What is rather evident here and amongst Badenoch's supporters is that they are tying themselves in knots trying to explain what she "really" meant. If a politician expresses herself so badly that people have to do this to undo the bad impression she is giving, she shouldn't be in politics, because she will be a walking disaster area. If she really didn't mean to say what she actually did say, how can she be let loose on communicating on, for example, really delicate foreign policy negotiations?

YourAmplePlumPoster · 20/10/2024 23:19

Jenrick just comes over as a posh Tory boy who will have no appeal to the electorate. The members will probably vote for him though.

TempestTost · 21/10/2024 00:41

GoldenPheasant · 20/10/2024 22:26

What is rather evident here and amongst Badenoch's supporters is that they are tying themselves in knots trying to explain what she "really" meant. If a politician expresses herself so badly that people have to do this to undo the bad impression she is giving, she shouldn't be in politics, because she will be a walking disaster area. If she really didn't mean to say what she actually did say, how can she be let loose on communicating on, for example, really delicate foreign policy negotiations?

Edited

No one is tying themselves in knots. What she is saying seems pretty clear.

It's just that you, and some others, seem to read her criticism of the way the system is (not) working as saying that kids with autism etc shouldn't get help, or be in school.

This seems to be a very typical way some people who are on the political progressive side interpret any kind of critical comment about a policy. It can be about education, the environment, women's rights, health policy - as soon as someone criticizes a policy as being unlikely to work, or creating unfairness, or having other problems - they are interpreted as not caring about education, the environment, or whatever else the good cause is.

That's not the only or even the most obvious reason, in a lot of cases it seems to be quite a stretch to make that interpretation. There seems to be a really strong disinclination to actually work through the criticisms or observations being made.

I suppose this is why so much of politics is about easily digestible sound bites, and why there is so little work done around the nitty gritty of producing good, practical, workable policies.

As to your other point - If you set up a regulatory hierarchy, that does imply the things that come first in the hierarchy are more value or more important. But if you don't want to allow for that interpretation, we can say it materially advantages them.

The idea that by giving advantages to a child we can balance out some other disadvantage they have, in a setting like school, is a problem. Especially when other kids may have as much or more financial need.

Menopausemayhem · 21/10/2024 07:58

1: has 3 children, generous maternity pay but F everyone else
2: parents came here for a better life for her but F everyone else
3: disgraceful remarks against carers (we just wipe bottoms apparently!) so F her!

Shortshriftandlethal · 21/10/2024 08:01

GoldenPheasant · 20/10/2024 22:26

What is rather evident here and amongst Badenoch's supporters is that they are tying themselves in knots trying to explain what she "really" meant. If a politician expresses herself so badly that people have to do this to undo the bad impression she is giving, she shouldn't be in politics, because she will be a walking disaster area. If she really didn't mean to say what she actually did say, how can she be let loose on communicating on, for example, really delicate foreign policy negotiations?

Edited

Rather many who have automatic antipathy to anyone in the Conservative party are relentless in their attempts to vilify and make out that Badenoch, and others, are heartless, evil people. It's the way that political engagement has gone, largely as a result of social media tribes and the way that they generate polarisation. Toxic.

Shortshriftandlethal · 21/10/2024 08:05

TempestTost · 21/10/2024 00:41

No one is tying themselves in knots. What she is saying seems pretty clear.

It's just that you, and some others, seem to read her criticism of the way the system is (not) working as saying that kids with autism etc shouldn't get help, or be in school.

This seems to be a very typical way some people who are on the political progressive side interpret any kind of critical comment about a policy. It can be about education, the environment, women's rights, health policy - as soon as someone criticizes a policy as being unlikely to work, or creating unfairness, or having other problems - they are interpreted as not caring about education, the environment, or whatever else the good cause is.

That's not the only or even the most obvious reason, in a lot of cases it seems to be quite a stretch to make that interpretation. There seems to be a really strong disinclination to actually work through the criticisms or observations being made.

I suppose this is why so much of politics is about easily digestible sound bites, and why there is so little work done around the nitty gritty of producing good, practical, workable policies.

As to your other point - If you set up a regulatory hierarchy, that does imply the things that come first in the hierarchy are more value or more important. But if you don't want to allow for that interpretation, we can say it materially advantages them.

The idea that by giving advantages to a child we can balance out some other disadvantage they have, in a setting like school, is a problem. Especially when other kids may have as much or more financial need.

Another good post. Unfortunately, I imagine it will go straight over the heads of those whose political analysis is more 'Spitiing Image' charicaterisation than engagement with the detail of issues.

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/10/2024 09:41

GoldenPheasant · 20/10/2024 22:26

What is rather evident here and amongst Badenoch's supporters is that they are tying themselves in knots trying to explain what she "really" meant. If a politician expresses herself so badly that people have to do this to undo the bad impression she is giving, she shouldn't be in politics, because she will be a walking disaster area. If she really didn't mean to say what she actually did say, how can she be let loose on communicating on, for example, really delicate foreign policy negotiations?

Edited

Exactly.

Badenoch is a walking disaster. Fortunately she won't get to be present at any delicate negotiations with anyone outside the party.😉

I am hoping she wins this leadership race. I'd rather see the Tory Party go out with Badenoch's fury and fireworks rather with whimpers and squibs from Jenrick.😁

PerkingFaintly · 21/10/2024 11:30

GoldenPheasant · 20/10/2024 22:26

What is rather evident here and amongst Badenoch's supporters is that they are tying themselves in knots trying to explain what she "really" meant. If a politician expresses herself so badly that people have to do this to undo the bad impression she is giving, she shouldn't be in politics, because she will be a walking disaster area. If she really didn't mean to say what she actually did say, how can she be let loose on communicating on, for example, really delicate foreign policy negotiations?

Edited

Yes, exactly @GoldenPheasant .

And it’s actually worse than that. There’s saying things she didn’t mean (supposedly).

And then there’s not saying things that she did mean (supposedly).Hmm

If she had meant these things, then even after a bad interview she could have come out and said them herself. But she didn’t.

Perhaps she was too busy whining she was being misrepresented to fit it in...

(Thanks again to her supporter who linked her maternity pay interview, so I could see she was not misrepresented.)

Two similar mess-ups in as many weeks...

PerkingFaintly · 21/10/2024 11:34

Yes she may well win. The field isn't exactly strong.😂 I mean, Jenrick?!

So she may well count as the best the Tories can offer at the moment.

There will be Johnson-types waiting to swan back in when there's an election in the offing, after someone else has kept the seat warm during the boring bits – just as Johnson did to May.Hmm

PerkingFaintly · 21/10/2024 11:43

But about the Badenoch-booster accounts.

Their behaviour is actually quite... not good:
“Badenoch’s wonderful and we want her to be the Leader – but don’t worry when she talks mince, we'll decide what she thinks and we'll talk for her...”

Really?

PerkingFaintly · 21/10/2024 11:58

And as for the accounts trying to rewrite her...

They’re trying to take us for fools.

BTW, those accounts are the reason I am taking more interest in this thread.

Politician says stupid thing = last week’s news. But this dogged and risible attempt to gaslight MNers, and to talk over us and even over Badenoch herself...

Mm-hmm.

MalagaNights · 21/10/2024 14:26

All the personal insults, simplistic good/ bad characterisation in these political discussions just gets so tiresome, those being attacked give up trying to have a discussion, and those weilding mostly just a self belief in moral superiority and not much more, believe they have some sort of victory (until they are suprised when elections don't go their way, because everyone on MN agreed the Tories were evil??!!)

SEND really needs honest, hard discussion and solutions based on the realties of the situation. It seems like that just cannot happen so the whole thing will continue to stagger on breaking down and failig children, but at least some people will congratulate themsleves that they cared more, and shouted at the mean people, while it failed.

Labour will not touch SEND reform with a barge pole because thyey know it would look like this thread.

Shortshriftandlethal · 21/10/2024 16:29

PerkingFaintly · 21/10/2024 11:58

And as for the accounts trying to rewrite her...

They’re trying to take us for fools.

BTW, those accounts are the reason I am taking more interest in this thread.

Politician says stupid thing = last week’s news. But this dogged and risible attempt to gaslight MNers, and to talk over us and even over Badenoch herself...

Mm-hmm.

Sounds a bit conspiratorial on your part. I'm not sure who you think those of us with different perspectives or takes really are?

Franky, I've never come across you, or quite a few others who have posted on this thread before, on this board - but I'm certainly not some Tory plant as you seem to be suggesting. I've been posting here for many years; am an ex Labour party member and voter; and just happened to have broadened my perspective in more recent times and let go of the toxic tribalism.