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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dawkins describes trans ID as a meme

247 replies

nythbran2 · 02/10/2024 07:36

Very surprised he didn't say this year's earlier (or did I miss it?). Still an unpleasant man though. www.thetimes.com/article/3f4adf27-3fb8-463a-9c1c-3a90ba605b2f?shareToken=0f280c08e52b86d1cd6b0cd7a3a7b3ba

OP posts:
Gingernaut · 13/10/2024 12:50

BanksysSprayCan · 02/10/2024 07:59

He’s a sound scientist, and his early work was genuinely groundbreaking, but he has a way of delivering his ideas that upset some people.

I like him

He doesn't do insults for the sake of riling people and he doesn't go out of his way to attack people or their beliefs

Sometimes, it simply isn't possible to 'sugar coat' the pill, so a simple, direct approach works best

borntobequiet · 13/10/2024 14:40

If you’re right handed, it makes more sense to suck your left thumb (I did until I was about 7), so you can draw or play with toys using your dominant hand.

I was a right handed and right footed high jumper, and jumped off my left foot, because I “led” with my right foot. Similarly, I cartwheeled on to my left hand, because it’s actually the right hand that leads the overhead movement.

When I coached rowing, I used to allocate people to stroke or bow side by asking them to look briefly to one side or the other, and if the looked left, I put them on bow side, right on stroke.

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 14/10/2024 16:17

Gingernaut · 13/10/2024 12:50

I like him

He doesn't do insults for the sake of riling people and he doesn't go out of his way to attack people or their beliefs

Sometimes, it simply isn't possible to 'sugar coat' the pill, so a simple, direct approach works best

I also like some of the things he says, but I'm not sure the 'not riling' people for the sake of it is true.

I remember (must have been about 2007) he rented ads on double decker buses in London to tell religious people they were wrong.

I remember that I was not especially religious at the time but that it got my goat because it seemed so mean spirited and unnecessary - why go to such lengths to take away something that gives so many people such comfort - even if you are right, what good does it do?

Really brought me down every time I saw one, both because of the message, and that someone had gone to such lengths to shove it in my face.

I think it was supposed to be in response to the religious ads sometimes seen, but to my mind they weren't equivalent. One was hopeful, one was depressing.

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 14/10/2024 16:18

Had to look it up... the campaign wasn't by Dawkins but he supported it:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist_Bus_Campaign

Atheist Bus Campaign - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist_Bus_Campaign

duc748 · 14/10/2024 16:28

DeanElderberry · 13/10/2024 12:38

The thing I find interesting about the thumb on top, hand on top thing is that id does not seem to be linked to handedness.

Indeed. I'm left-handed, but have the same results as you.

An oddity I've noticed, is that I often pour beer into a glass from a large jug, and the jug will be in my dominant hand. But if I pour a beer from a bottle, the glass will be in my dominant hand,and the bottle in the other.

ThisBluntPlumDreamer · 14/10/2024 17:12

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 14/10/2024 16:17

I also like some of the things he says, but I'm not sure the 'not riling' people for the sake of it is true.

I remember (must have been about 2007) he rented ads on double decker buses in London to tell religious people they were wrong.

I remember that I was not especially religious at the time but that it got my goat because it seemed so mean spirited and unnecessary - why go to such lengths to take away something that gives so many people such comfort - even if you are right, what good does it do?

Really brought me down every time I saw one, both because of the message, and that someone had gone to such lengths to shove it in my face.

I think it was supposed to be in response to the religious ads sometimes seen, but to my mind they weren't equivalent. One was hopeful, one was depressing.

"Stop Worrying and Enjoy Your Life" is surely a positive message?

It's saying that if (for example) you were gay or using contraception or eating pork or whatever and were worried that God disapproves, you can let go of that fear.

SerendipityJane · 14/10/2024 17:40

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 14/10/2024 16:17

I also like some of the things he says, but I'm not sure the 'not riling' people for the sake of it is true.

I remember (must have been about 2007) he rented ads on double decker buses in London to tell religious people they were wrong.

I remember that I was not especially religious at the time but that it got my goat because it seemed so mean spirited and unnecessary - why go to such lengths to take away something that gives so many people such comfort - even if you are right, what good does it do?

Really brought me down every time I saw one, both because of the message, and that someone had gone to such lengths to shove it in my face.

I think it was supposed to be in response to the religious ads sometimes seen, but to my mind they weren't equivalent. One was hopeful, one was depressing.

Probably best not mention the religions that say unbelievers are going to hell then ....

AmeliaEarache · 14/10/2024 18:02

@AstonScrapingsNameChange - first up, it was Ariane Sherine’s campaign, Dawkins only agreed to match fund the first £5,500. (Which it reached by 10:30 that morning, if memory serves.) She was a Guardian columnist at the time.

Secondly, it was in response to bus and tube advertisements promoting a fundamentalist Christian sect’s website stating unbelievers would burn in hell. If you find that ‘hopeful’ or ‘inspiring’ then we are using wildly different dictionaries. Personally I prefer to avoid messages of damnation on my commute.

I contributed to the atheist bus fundraiser and I definitely found it a cheery wee message on my way to work. “Now stop worrying and enjoy your life”… what’s not to like?

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 14/10/2024 20:03

AmeliaEarache · 14/10/2024 18:02

@AstonScrapingsNameChange - first up, it was Ariane Sherine’s campaign, Dawkins only agreed to match fund the first £5,500. (Which it reached by 10:30 that morning, if memory serves.) She was a Guardian columnist at the time.

Secondly, it was in response to bus and tube advertisements promoting a fundamentalist Christian sect’s website stating unbelievers would burn in hell. If you find that ‘hopeful’ or ‘inspiring’ then we are using wildly different dictionaries. Personally I prefer to avoid messages of damnation on my commute.

I contributed to the atheist bus fundraiser and I definitely found it a cheery wee message on my way to work. “Now stop worrying and enjoy your life”… what’s not to like?

Blimey, I didn't see those burn in hell ones!

No, I agree clearly that's not hopeful or positive either. But I don't think that the one justifies the other.

I did say in the second post that "the campaign wasn't by Dawkins but he supported it". He had his name on the ads which is how I knew he had anything to do with them, so was clearly happy to make his association clear.

I get that religion can be a divisive subject. But personally I don't think that 'There probably is no God' is going to be reassuring or positive to hear for the majority of people (although I understand that it could be if you have had very negative experiences of religion. But religion is not God - religion is people).

So I stand by it being a mean spirited and unnecessary thing to do- randomly and publicly trashing something that gives a lot of people comfort and reassurance, whether or not it's ultimately true (although I do admire him as a critical thinker).

theilltemperedclavecinist · 14/10/2024 20:19

So, we're not going to fund a fleet of buses bearing the legend "There's probably no such thing as gender identity ", then.....?

quantumbutterfly · 14/10/2024 20:47

theilltemperedclavecinist · 14/10/2024 20:19

So, we're not going to fund a fleet of buses bearing the legend "There's probably no such thing as gender identity ", then.....?

if only.

lcakethereforeIam · 14/10/2024 21:18

Scratch 'probably' and I'll chuck in a fiver.

newtlover · 14/10/2024 22:25

me too
a tenner even

TempestTost · 14/10/2024 23:05

SerendipityJane · 14/10/2024 17:40

Probably best not mention the religions that say unbelievers are going to hell then ....

That is a pretty negative bus ad too.

When I was a child I often went past a sign on a highway which said "Prepare to Meet Thy God" which I was quite fascinated by, although I imagine it might be disconcerting if you were a poor driver.

But even that doesn't fly these days and the sign, which is still there, says "Jesus Saves" instead.

ErrolTheDragon · 14/10/2024 23:18

why go to such lengths to take away something that gives so many people such comfort - even if you are right, what good does it do?

I think it might have been very helpful to people whose life had in some way been negatively impacted by religions, while probably not really denting the comfort of believers.

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 15/10/2024 10:36

theilltemperedclavecinist · 14/10/2024 20:19

So, we're not going to fund a fleet of buses bearing the legend "There's probably no such thing as gender identity ", then.....?

Sign me up!

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 15/10/2024 11:08

In all seriousness, although I'm an avid supporter of free speech, I'm not really in favour of billboards shouting about whatever your issue is - religion, gender, whatever. As a PP said, its potentially distracting to drivers and there is no room for nuance. It's a hell of a blunt instrument.

@Errol it didn't dent my comfort re God, but it sure dented my comfort in people. It really brought me down at the start of my day, and I can still clearly feel how I felt reading it 18 odd years later. I was going through a bad time with mental health and struggling in to work. It felt very depressing that some people were so wedded to their world view that they'd go to that much trouble to defend it and tell others they were wrong, and screw anyone hurt in the process.

I do take the point it might have been intended as a counter to the awful 'burn in hell' messages (which despite living in London I had never actually encountered). Perhaps as a PP said it was even intended as an emotional rather than just factual response, with the aim of being reassuring: you don't need to worry about what God does or doesn't think about you, because God probably doesn't exist.

I admit I hadn't considered that way of reading it. To me, the 'go and enjoy your life' seems mocking rather than reassuring - "Hello religious people, you know that thing you hold so dear? Well I'm here to tell you it's all made up! (Implication - you must be stupid to believe it). Have a nice day (now that I've upset you by being so dismissive)".

That's how it reads to me - and it's fair to assume that's how it read to at least some other people too.

In any case, we don't know what his motives were. But taken in context of the way he speaks and writes generally, I think it's fair to assume it was more about being right than comforting people hurt by religion (I don't know about the person who initiated the campaign - I've never heard of her so don't have an opinion).

I therefore still think it was, at best, an unwise course of action and at worse, downright inflammatory inconsiderate.

Of course, it could be argued that Dawkins is under no compunction to consider other people's feelings and beliefs, nor to be polite and considerate. That is true. In the same way, I, and others, are allowed to judge him for choosing to be so overtly inconsiderate. And I do.

And...I still respect his critical thinking skills.

(I now realise Dawkins wasnt the instigator of the poster campaign - but Dawkins is a high profile individual who chose to have his name on the posters, freely choosing to be associated publicly with it, unlike anonymous donors).

duc748 · 15/10/2024 11:17

Dawkins always gives me the impression to me that he doesn't really GAS about other people's feelings.

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 15/10/2024 11:27

duc748 · 15/10/2024 11:17

Dawkins always gives me the impression to me that he doesn't really GAS about other people's feelings.

Exactly. The idea that he was just trying to cheer up people hurt by religion?

Nah, sorry, I don't buy it.

HumanBurrito · 15/10/2024 11:57

DadJoke · 02/10/2024 11:05

The only research papers on social contagion (the method by which memes are transmitted) were disowned by the writer and withdrawn for methodological flaws. To demonstrate it's a meme, you'd have to prove social contagion.

If you can figure out why there was a huge increase in left-handedness from this graph, you can figure out why more people are reporting being transgender.

Now do the graphs for punks and emo kids

lcakethereforeIam · 15/10/2024 12:01

Nah, do something by the Spice Girls!

ErrolTheDragon · 15/10/2024 12:24

Exactly. The idea that he was just trying to cheer up people hurt by religion?

No, that was more of a nice side effect.

The campaign was very specifically in response to religious advertising (which afaik doesn't GAF about people's feelings either) and rather accidental - really not Dawkins going to great trouble!

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/jun/20/transport.religion

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/aug/06/richarddawkins.religion

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