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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Nightsleeper129 · 03/10/2024 15:49

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 30/09/2024 12:00

I always think this.

You live your life as a man, with male privilege. Then one day you decide you're going to be a woman now.

Once visibly transitioned you find yourself subjected to abuse and harassment, you feel less safe, you miss the male privilege.

And what do you put it down to? "Transphobia" of course!

Mate, you said you wanted to live as a woman. How do you think women live?

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Agree totally

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 03/10/2024 16:27

Zebrassiere · 02/10/2024 21:29

Yes but again that's your point of view. It's the opposite to a trans person. I don't disagree with you. I just think there is an element of hypocrisy.

The initial post I was responding to was saying "don't call me cis!". Appreciate that pp didn't say whether or not they would use preferred pronouns or not but that's obviously a common position

Ie wouldn't it be more fair if it was either "don't call me cis and I won't call you a man" or "you can call me cis but I can call you a man"

I'm inclined to say (if I ever get the chance) to my son that he can call me a bigot as often and as publicly as he likes, and in return I get to call him "him". Really, I'd just like the quite honest relationship we used to have, when we were each allowed to express our opinions

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 03/10/2024 16:46

Zebrassiere · 02/10/2024 21:51

Helloofabore

I suppose that's part and parcel of my point. Yes one is material reality and one is a belief system. But not to a trans person. To them their belief system is a material reality. Like a Christian thinks the existence of god is a fact. I just find it problematic policing other people's right to talk in terms of their belief system while maintaining the right to speak in terms of your own belief system - ie aren't you imposing your belief system on them from their perspective when you address them as sir? Yes you can speak in terms of your belief system but I don't think it's fair to deny others the right to do so in the same breath

Actually, as a Christian, I don't think that the existence of God is a fact. I try to live my life on the premise that God exists (partly because I find it harder to believe that God does not exist), but God has not revealed himself (or herself if you prefer) to me in an unambiguous way so I can't claim the existence of God as a fact even from my perspective, let alone as a universally proven fact. I therefore respect your right not to affirm my faith; you do not have to say "Amen" to my prayers, and actually I think it would be very insensitive even to pray openly in your presence. The very furthest I might go is to offer you the choice, but much more likely I would respect your worldview enough to leave it entirely up to you to engage with my faith or not to engage with it.

I do not accept the claims of genderism at all, and I don't think it's OK for genderists, whether of the ultra conservative or the TRA variety, to impose their sexist stereotypes on those of us who don't accept the validity of gender stereotypes. So the assumption that everyone should accept the concept of gender identity as useful is as unreasonable as the assumption that everyone, no matter their personal experiences, should be a believer in God.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2024 21:57

Or, as the Americans put it, 'Man, that needs adult beverages!'

I can report already at about 10 minutes in that it really does 🙄

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2024 22:17

Not happy being "misgendered" by an unfortunate waitress even though quite glaringly obviously male, doesn't remotely pass. The male privilege these males have is immense.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2024 22:18

There is literally nothing that makes me think this male is a woman. I recoil from the idea that I'm supposed to pretend I think that.

soupycustard · 03/10/2024 22:38

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2024 22:17

Not happy being "misgendered" by an unfortunate waitress even though quite glaringly obviously male, doesn't remotely pass. The male privilege these males have is immense.

Typical. Privileged male [fake] offended by someone with none of his advantages. Which appear to be 'knowing a bloke who's an actor'. The snobbery and rudeness is sickening.

XChrome · 03/10/2024 22:51

Chipsintheair · 03/10/2024 08:36

I've always assumed that feeling like a woman meant having that churning pain in the abdomen that comes with periods and seemingly random other times. Of course, not all women get this — I no longer do now I don't have periods — but still, I get that queasy feeling and memory of abdominal discomfort every time I hear, "feels like a woman." Eeeerrgh.

I genuinely can't think of anything else the phrase could mean, unless it's referring to feeling you're a second class citizen, your thoughts and voice dismissed, being patronised and overlooked, objectified in youth then ignored in old age. I imagine transwomen experience some of those things, but they could probably cease to do so if they wished, simply by not presenting themselves as female, whereas women can't easily at all.

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Yeah, I have a sneaking suspicion that what it means to most of those who believe in it (whether trans or not) is being desirable to men.
Just look at the two song examples. Both are about how being with a particular man makes her feel like a woman.
Otoh there are trans identifying males who have sex and relationships with women. I suppose they could still value being desired by men though, as a form of validation.
I have often wondered if a part of it is about wanting to be members of the group who are in higher demand for sex and who get more admiration for their looks. They may want to be sex objects due to lack of experience in what it entails, thinking it's about compliments and being put on a pedestal rather than about being considered prey.
They also don't realize how fleeting it is, that they will seen as non-entities after a certain age.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2024 22:53

they really don't want an honest answer (see eg numerous manifestations of the "call me ma'am" phenomenon as proof of this).

I can report that Harper literally pulls an unironic, pissed off "it's ma'am" to a woman probably earning minimum wage.

Boiledbeetle · 03/10/2024 23:01

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2024 22:53

they really don't want an honest answer (see eg numerous manifestations of the "call me ma'am" phenomenon as proof of this).

I can report that Harper literally pulls an unironic, pissed off "it's ma'am" to a woman probably earning minimum wage.

It's was a particularly unpleasant part of the documentary watching him barely containing his anger with his it's ma'am response.

XChrome · 03/10/2024 23:02

borntobequiet · 03/10/2024 08:41

There are even song lyrics about it, eg; man I feel like a woman and you make me feel like a natural woman. What the hell does it mean to feel like a woman?

I have come to realise that all these sorts of song lyrics are designed to describe sexual desire or the act of sexual intercourse, dressed up in “acceptable” language.

”How deep is your love” “I want to feel your love” “Love you all night long” ”I want to know what love is” and endless similar - all about fucking. Also, see poetry and literature down the ages.

”Feel like a woman” in the excerpt above means “experience sexual gratification (orgasm) as a female”

The word love has many meanings, and some languages (e.g. Greek) have different words for different sorts of love. In English, we have one. This confuses people. It also means that “feeling like a man/woman” is open to multiple misleading interpretations, when really it’s all about sex. The younger you are, the less you understand this, which is why teenagers who want to transition are all about the higher feelings, whereas older people (generally) are all about the sex/kink/whatever.

This is my personal interpretation, which I know others will disagree with. That’s fine.

Edited

I think that being desirable to a man is also part of it. That's the "feeling" of being a woman- validation that they are desirable.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2024 23:02

Harper says that people say "you will never be a woman" and kind of shrugs and says "yes, I'm a trans woman, but I'm feeling something, right". Showing that Harper knows full well what an actual woman is, and that isn't Harper.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2024 23:03

It's was a particularly unpleasant part of the documentary watching him barely containing his anger with his it's ma'am response.

💯

XChrome · 03/10/2024 23:12

TofuTart · 03/10/2024 08:44

unless it's referring to feeling you're a second class citizen, your thoughts and voice dismissed, being patronised and overlooked, objectified in youth then ignored in old age

What a sad, depressing way to see yourself.
Genuinely. Hope you're OK.
I've always assumed it's the sense of self that comes with being a woman, if some women have it like me it stands to reason that people who are trans have it too and that's what they're referring to, whether they're a trans man or a trans woman.

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She's not talking about how she sees herself, but how she's been treated because of her sex. Yes, the truth of that is often depressing.

So what you are saying is that being a woman defines one's identity?
I do not experience that at all. My identity is about who I am as a person; my values and personality.
Being a woman is about my body and about identification with the experiences of other women. So maybe that's why I don't have this "I feel like a woman" thing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2024 23:18

Harper enthusiastically agreeing with a woman who had had a cross dressing patient who had come in to see her saying he loved his wife but he dressed up in her clothes as much as he could. Such a lovely thing to do to your wife's personal things.

duc748 · 03/10/2024 23:39

XChrome · 03/10/2024 22:51

Yeah, I have a sneaking suspicion that what it means to most of those who believe in it (whether trans or not) is being desirable to men.
Just look at the two song examples. Both are about how being with a particular man makes her feel like a woman.
Otoh there are trans identifying males who have sex and relationships with women. I suppose they could still value being desired by men though, as a form of validation.
I have often wondered if a part of it is about wanting to be members of the group who are in higher demand for sex and who get more admiration for their looks. They may want to be sex objects due to lack of experience in what it entails, thinking it's about compliments and being put on a pedestal rather than about being considered prey.
They also don't realize how fleeting it is, that they will seen as non-entities after a certain age.

Show quote history

Isn't that a bit sad, though? Sex isn't the be all and end all, but it should be pleasurable. And more central in some people's lives than others, which is fine. And song lyrics have directed our emotions since forever. Thinking back to the lyrics when I was kid, like "Stay away from Runaround Sue!", "Devil Woman" and so on, I find it hard to complain about Carole King.

XChrome · 04/10/2024 00:39

duc748 · 03/10/2024 23:39

Isn't that a bit sad, though? Sex isn't the be all and end all, but it should be pleasurable. And more central in some people's lives than others, which is fine. And song lyrics have directed our emotions since forever. Thinking back to the lyrics when I was kid, like "Stay away from Runaround Sue!", "Devil Woman" and so on, I find it hard to complain about Carole King.

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To want validation of your desirability to your partner is normal, but to make it the main source of your identity as female is indeed sad.
I'm not running down Carlole King. That song is from a different era and reflects the values of that era.
The misogynistic songs you mention are from a different era as well, but they reflect attitudes men still hold to this day, probably even more strongly actually. Vile, misogynistic songs are still being written, especially in gangsta rap.

MelodyMalone · 04/10/2024 08:55

Boiledbeetle · 03/10/2024 23:01

It's was a particularly unpleasant part of the documentary watching him barely containing his anger with his it's ma'am response.

Show quote history

Reminds me of an incident a while back with a TW going ballistic all over social media at an unfortunate restaurant employee and trying to get them sacked for "misgendering". There was a video, IIRC, and the poor employee was doing his best but didn't have a clue of the "right" answer to the question "do I look like a woman to you?!" - when presented with someone wearing a wig and makeup but with a male name on their credit card.

Grammarnut · 04/10/2024 09:15

FlirtsWithRhinos · 02/10/2024 15:38

@MissScarletInTheBallroom

But even if "being female and not having gender dysphoria" could be described as an identity, it clearly would not be the same identity as "being male and suffering from gender dysphoria". These are two separate groups, not one group united by their shared characteristics.

I know, this idea that people who are a thing and people who are not a thing but think they should have been are both equally the thing.

It's like saying a person with size 7 feet who thinks they should really have had size 5 feet has feet that are more the same as actual size 5 feet than they are like size 7 feet.

Try wearing size 5s - alas they are hobbling round in them thinking that this makes them size 5s!

RainWithSunnySpells · 04/10/2024 09:25

So, anyone else wondering if Hentai or sissy porn played its part with Harper's new identity? Was is mentioned in the documentary?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2024 09:58

It wasn't mentioned, I can't imagine that would be great for what they were obviously trying to do with this film propaganda

CrossPurposes · 04/10/2024 10:23

@duc748 @XChrome Carole King is in the clear, it was Gerry Goffin wrote the words for "You make me feel..." not her.

lcakethereforeIam · 04/10/2024 12:40

Found this guy on YouTube. He reviews, kind of, the film and the article that preceeded it. He's got a snarky style I like but he's probably on the right so be warned

He also did a review of Jessie Gender(?, I assumed a tw) reviewing Matt Walsh's latest film, MW in that wig will never not be funny.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/Sp7LJa_Z09o?si=o8ccSh3RFPkr5ZjT

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2024 13:34

I enjoyed that @lcakethereforeIam he's got Steele's number, totally.

XChrome · 04/10/2024 18:00

CrossPurposes · 04/10/2024 10:23

@duc748 @XChrome Carole King is in the clear, it was Gerry Goffin wrote the words for "You make me feel..." not her.

Thanks. I just checked out Man I Feel Like a Woman. Get this- Shania Twain was inspired to write the lyrics by a drag show. 😄