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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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11
RoyalCorgi · 02/10/2024 13:39

FlirtsWithRhinos · 02/10/2024 09:55

@MissScarletInTheBallroom

Storming post 👏👏👏

Seconded.

Helleofabore · 02/10/2024 13:39

Coming back to my points on the previous page, if people with a transgender identity wanted to refer to others who don’t have a transgender identity as ‘people without a transgender identity’, I don’t believe people would reject this. It is a material fact.

But that is not what has happened.

Instead, for the linguistic demands to work, some people have forced everyone to have a ‘gender identity’. This is a falsity and it always was.

That is what people reject. They reject being forced to have any gender identity. Because having a gender identity requires belief in a particular philosophical belief.

The reality is that there are two groups of people:

Group 1 are people who don’t believe in gender identity theory at all. And I expect that this group is the majority of people.

Group 2 are people who believe in gender identity theory - they have gender identities that are either transgender or cis gender.

Why is it in any way appropriate to shame people in Group 1 for rejecting the beliefs of Group 2?

Group 1 don’t reject the rights for that group to exist and belief what they want but they do reject Group 2’s right to demand society makes language changes to suit Group 2.

Anastomosisrex · 02/10/2024 14:01

The problem is that Group 2 cannot exist or function without the enabling and participation of Group 1. Hence the fuss.

Group 2 need to figure out how to manage by themselves and leave Group 1 alone and in peace.

Helleofabore · 02/10/2024 14:10

Anastomosisrex · 02/10/2024 14:01

The problem is that Group 2 cannot exist or function without the enabling and participation of Group 1. Hence the fuss.

Group 2 need to figure out how to manage by themselves and leave Group 1 alone and in peace.

Wouldn’t that be great?

Can’t see it happening though. Which is why so much emotional manipulation is used for Group 2 to get its demands met.

It is why we end up having people think it is unfair to reject language demands from Group 2. Because some people think it is acceptable for Group 2 to have redefined language to suit themselves and that Group 1 need to respect Group 2’s language demands.

Errr…. No. No group in society should have the right to redefine language in this way. It is not hypocritical for Group 1 to reject Group 2’s language demands which only reflect Group 2’s beliefs and is not grounded in any material reality with provable evidence and abiding established factual knowledge, when the language redefines all human beings to suit that belief.

duc748 · 02/10/2024 14:13

Clear and lucid thinking as usual on this thread. 👏👏

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/10/2024 14:16

Excellent post @Helleofabore

I would add the following (something I have said before but I feel it bears repeating).

For proponents of gender identity theory, cis people are people whose gender identity aligns with their sex assigned at birth, whereas trans people are people whose gender identity conflicts with their sex assigned at birth.

For people who do not subscribe to gender identity theory, trans people are people who suffer from gender dysphoria and cis people the rest of us are people without gender dysphoria. "Being female and not having gender dysphoria" and "being male and not having gender dysphoria" are not identities. This is simply a normal state of being, i.e. the default. (But to suggest that the rest of us are normal and trans people are abnormal is of course deeply transphobic.)

But even if "being female and not having gender dysphoria" could be described as an identity, it clearly would not be the same identity as "being male and suffering from gender dysphoria". These are two separate groups, not one group united by their shared characteristics.

So the only way you can make sense of the "women plus trans women" category is if you believe that "woman" is a gender identity which has absolutely nothing to do with either being female or having gender dysphoria, but just exists in its own right as a real thing which floats in the ether and happens to be shared by over 4 billion people globally, including almost all female people (who are largely completely unaware of it) plus a small number of male people who obsess over it.

Despite this mythical gender identity of "woman" being something shared by around half the world's population, it can't be described. It has no characteristics. It is so generic that it allows half of humanity to be put in one category based on the fact that they all share it, and simultaneously so deeply personal and subjective that it defies description. No one can explain what it is or what characteristics it has or what it has to do with being a woman and if you ask these questions you are accused of trolling and sealioning, because of course everyone knows what it is, even if no one can put it into words.

And since it's the female people (the vast majority of people who apparently share this identity) who don't really seem to be aware of it or understand what it is, and the male people (a tiny minority) who insist that it is real and it is what defines a woman, we end up with the definition of a woman being "whatever trans women say a woman is" (and if you have any questions you're a hateful bigot).

Helleofabore · 02/10/2024 14:31

Yes missscarlet

For gender identity theory to be usable, it really does require there to be a magical woman and man essence that anyone can claim.

It is bonkers and it is misogynistic.

Anastomosisrex · 02/10/2024 14:37

All of it, the whole bloody lot of it, is a lot of special incoherent wangling so that male people can try to enforce the illusion of being the opposite sex. That's it. That's all.

Group 1 happily tolerating Group 2's personal language choices is fine.

Group 2 however are not able apparently to have their identities and all the rest of it, without Group 1 not just tolerating and living alongside, but actively participating, enabling, creating the illusion for Group 2 to live inside.

That's where it falls down. Because people in Group 2 are wholly entitled to say no, nothing to do with me mate, and I charge by the hour for service provision.

Grammarnut · 02/10/2024 15:27

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/10/2024 08:09

You raise an interesting point.

I think for me there are two issues here. The first is wanting to classify everyone by reference to gender identity, and the second is which words you use to do that.

My view is, you're welcome to invent any identity for yourself that you like, but you shouldn't be cannibalising anyone else's identity in the process.

Let's just simplify things for a minute and imagine that all trans people are biological males who are completely harmless and just feel much more authentic presenting in a stereotypically feminine way. Fine. Good for them. If they believe this is an identity and come up with a term for that identity (for example, flying spaghetti monsters) and use that term to describe themselves, fine. If want everyone else to refer to them as flying spaghetti monsters, I also wouldn't have a problem with that, as long as we all understood that flying spaghetti monsters are a subcategory of men in situations where sex is relevant. If they believed they needed their own toilets and sporting categories for flying spaghetti monsters I'd be a bit sceptical but they'd be welcome to campaign for that.

But that's not what they've done. They've chosen the word "woman" for their identity. This means that anyone who is actually a woman gets co-opted into this identity whether she likes it or not, unless she then chooses to identify as something other than a woman. Our choice is simple: either we accept being colonised and agree to share the word "women" with people who are the opposite of what a woman is, or we accept being usurped, so these people are now women and we no longer are.

Why have they done this? Well, as far as I can see the only reason for doing it is so that they can access women's spaces and sports. These are the only situations in which we really distinguish between men and women in public life. These are the only areas where they need to be recognised as women in order to do something they cannot do as men, even if we all know perfectly well that they are not women. So this pretence benefits them and harms us.

As for the word "cis", it pre-supposes that there are two types of women: cis (female) women and trans (male) women. Simply by using this word or allowing it to be used about you, you are tacitly accepting the premise that a trans woman is also a woman.

So from my point of view, I cannot call a male person a woman and I will never accept being referred to as cis for exactly the same reason: because there is only one kind of woman, i.e. an adult female human.

If this all sounds a bit "my way or the high way", let's return to the first point I made. Why can't they think of a different word for whatever it is they believe they are identifying as? Then we can respect their identity and they can respect ours and we don't have to fight each other or tread on each other's toes? Well the answer is simple. Identifying as us is the whole point. They don't want their own box, they want to force their way into our box and then force us to remain in it with them. It only works as long as the rest of us (whether enthusiastically, grudgingly, or out of fear) play along and pretend we are all part of this imaginary sisterhood. You can bet your life that if we all collectively decided to relinquish the word "women", identified as trans men, non binary or flying spaghetti monsters and created our own spaces, today's trans women would start identifying as that and demanding access to those spaces.

I believe there are some trans women, such as India Willoughby for example, who do this very consciously and actively despise women. And I also believe that there are some "nice" trans women who just feel like the odd one out among other men, much prefer women, genuinely see themselves as one of the girls, and feel sad about mean TERFs who don't want to include them. But these trans women are just a variation on the "nice guy" theme. You know, the nice guy who believes you should want to date him because he's such a nice guy who will give you foot massages and slip love notes in your lunchbox and would never ever cheat, and doesn't understand that that's just not how emotions and human attraction work. Access to women (whether as romantic partners or as fellow users of a communal changing room) isn't a reward for being a nice person. We are autonomous human beings in our own right and there are limits to how you can influence our thoughts and feelings through your own behaviour. Sometimes we just don't want you hanging around for whatever reason, and that is our right.

I've gone off on a bit of a tangent with that last bit, but to come back to the point, it's not a trade off. We don't have to accept being called cis, or TERFs or worse, just because we don't refer to them as women and it's tit for tat. It's not tit for tat. If we reject the idea that "woman" is a word for a gender identity that they have, it's far more consistent to reject all of it, the preferred pronouns, the cis, the whole lot.

Well said.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 02/10/2024 15:28

I'm having fun with the horses/seahorses thing. It sounds very silly and harmless until you think what it would mean for farming policy and animal welfare if anyone tried it for real. "All stables must provide a source of fresh seawater unless they can guarantee never to house seahorses." And if there was a government grant to encourage horse ownership? "I've got a fishtank with 100 horses in it so cough up!".

I could even find some logical-sounding arguments in favour of claiming that seahorses are horses, arguments that might sound OK if you're desperate to Believe and you don't understand the science or at least don't look at it too hard. OK, so what if horses are large land mammals? Whales and dolphins live in the sea but they're not fishes they're mammals like horses; and duck-billed platypuses lay eggs and they're mammals, and seahorses don't actually lay eggs in the sea like other fish because the adult males hold the young in a pouch... So who is to say that seahorses can't ever be horses? Let's disrupt society's notion of what a horse is! Species are just a capitalist imperialist notion invented by dead white men to colonise and exploit mother earth.

Hm, better not get carried away. Someone could take this seriously. The Internet's like that.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 02/10/2024 15:33

@AmaryllisNightAndDay love it! Funny, but also actually exactly what is happening.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 02/10/2024 15:38

@MissScarletInTheBallroom

But even if "being female and not having gender dysphoria" could be described as an identity, it clearly would not be the same identity as "being male and suffering from gender dysphoria". These are two separate groups, not one group united by their shared characteristics.

I know, this idea that people who are a thing and people who are not a thing but think they should have been are both equally the thing.

It's like saying a person with size 7 feet who thinks they should really have had size 5 feet has feet that are more the same as actual size 5 feet than they are like size 7 feet.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/10/2024 15:42

FlirtsWithRhinos · 02/10/2024 15:38

@MissScarletInTheBallroom

But even if "being female and not having gender dysphoria" could be described as an identity, it clearly would not be the same identity as "being male and suffering from gender dysphoria". These are two separate groups, not one group united by their shared characteristics.

I know, this idea that people who are a thing and people who are not a thing but think they should have been are both equally the thing.

It's like saying a person with size 7 feet who thinks they should really have had size 5 feet has feet that are more the same as actual size 5 feet than they are like size 7 feet.

Well they're certainly kidding themselves if they think they can borrow each other's shoes.

Boiledbeetle · 02/10/2024 15:55

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 02/10/2024 15:28

I'm having fun with the horses/seahorses thing. It sounds very silly and harmless until you think what it would mean for farming policy and animal welfare if anyone tried it for real. "All stables must provide a source of fresh seawater unless they can guarantee never to house seahorses." And if there was a government grant to encourage horse ownership? "I've got a fishtank with 100 horses in it so cough up!".

I could even find some logical-sounding arguments in favour of claiming that seahorses are horses, arguments that might sound OK if you're desperate to Believe and you don't understand the science or at least don't look at it too hard. OK, so what if horses are large land mammals? Whales and dolphins live in the sea but they're not fishes they're mammals like horses; and duck-billed platypuses lay eggs and they're mammals, and seahorses don't actually lay eggs in the sea like other fish because the adult males hold the young in a pouch... So who is to say that seahorses can't ever be horses? Let's disrupt society's notion of what a horse is! Species are just a capitalist imperialist notion invented by dead white men to colonise and exploit mother earth.

Hm, better not get carried away. Someone could take this seriously. The Internet's like that.

The Grand National could be interesting!

Listen up cis people! Educate yourselves!
AmaryllisNightAndDay · 02/10/2024 15:58

Thanks for the image @Boiledbeetle ! Riding is exploitation, horses should swim free in the sea!

Four legs? What's the obsession with legs all of a sudden?

Boiledbeetle · 02/10/2024 16:09

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 02/10/2024 15:58

Thanks for the image @Boiledbeetle ! Riding is exploitation, horses should swim free in the sea!

Four legs? What's the obsession with legs all of a sudden?

of coursework be truly inclusive the seahorses And the horses would have to race together...

And you join us at the 3.30 at Chester, and Winston's Prayer has lost his jockey and appears to be drowning!

Listen up cis people! Educate yourselves!
JazzyJelly · 02/10/2024 16:55

TofuTart · 01/10/2024 23:44

We have "GC" posters on this very thread reducing and describing women as"fanny owners".
Not sure what a MCW is but if it's a non GC or trans person seems everyone's at it on here then.
Seriously Ew as someone just said in reply to you.

I don't 'reduce' myself or any other woman to their fanny. Women are lots more things besides, but these things tend to vary. Having female biology is something we all having in common.

I can't believe I'm actually having to say this.

JazzyJelly · 02/10/2024 17:05

Apologies, @FlirtsWithRhinos, I hadn't noticed that you had already responded in a much more comprehensive way than I just have.

BettyFilous · 02/10/2024 17:33

Ferrell asks Steele about breasts who says they instantly felt "right". Like no teenage girl ever ever experienced on first developing breasts (or a rack, as they call them in the film).

Really? Gross. That’s all I need to hear to know this film is sexist crap.

duc748 · 02/10/2024 17:37

Don't expect logic, MissS. You're clearly thought about it a lot more than they ever have!

Yalta · 02/10/2024 18:02

Before her transition, the Iowa-born Steele regarded the dive bars, diners and sports grounds of middle America as comforting spaces, and would routinely drive across the United States to observe and converse with the people there. As a trans woman, however, she no longer felt welcome or secure in many of the venues that once made her happy; in the film, Ferrell acts as her wingman, effectively reintroducing her to her happy place

Surely when people transition they realise that you can't lead your life as a man/ woman anymore and you are happy to leave all the masculine or feminine stuff behind
Isn't that the whole point of being trans

You can't say you want to be a woman and then expect to go to dive bars as usual and expect be welcomed with open arms. Of course you don't feel safe. It's what you signed up for

MelodyMalone · 02/10/2024 19:18

BettyFilous · 02/10/2024 17:33

Ferrell asks Steele about breasts who says they instantly felt "right". Like no teenage girl ever ever experienced on first developing breasts (or a rack, as they call them in the film).

Really? Gross. That’s all I need to hear to know this film is sexist crap.

Yeah, makes me shudder. Does any woman use that language? Seems to be only said by men objectifying women.

SinnerBoy · 02/10/2024 19:35

Helleofabore · Today 13:39

Group 1 don’t reject the rights for that group to exist and belief what they want but they do reject Group 2’s right to demand society makes language changes to suit Group 2.

Unfortunately, as we've seen repeatedly, Group 2 shriek and wail and gnash their teeth, pretending that Group 1 reject their right to exist; and they have convinced gullible "allies" that this is so. It's dangerous that people accept this, without criticism, or analysis.

SinnerBoy · 02/10/2024 19:36

Boiledbeetle · Today 15:55

Hell's Teeth! Has magic mushroom season started already?

😃

Boiledbeetle · 02/10/2024 19:53

SinnerBoy · 02/10/2024 19:36

Boiledbeetle · Today 15:55

Hell's Teeth! Has magic mushroom season started already?

😃

Stay High GIF

😁