Women's jail campaigners demand transmen offenders should be kept in female prisons *Title edited at OP's request*

[IwantToRetire]

Women's jail campaigners are demanding that the growing number of trans male offenders should be kept in female jails.

Dr Kate Coleman, of Keep Prisons Single Sex, said that the instances of women identifying as men mid-sentence is a “growing problem”.

But she believes that such prisoners should be treated as women - and that moving them to men’s prisons or a special “trans unit” would be misguided and dangerous.

“Whilst the focus, rightly in my view, has been on the risks that males who identify as transgender pose to women in prison, the challenges of adequately and appropriately meeting the needs of females who identify as transgender must be addressed.

“These needs must be met within the female estate.

“I understand that females who identify as men are difficult to manage.

“But there is no quandary about where to house her. She is female and belongs in the female estate. She must be managed in a way that is continuous with the way in which all other female prisoners are managed. Housing her in the male estate is not even a question that should be asked.

“This is for her own safety and for her own benefit as it is in the female estate that she will be able to access the services and programmes that are necessary for her to progress.”

NB Only extracts, NOT the whole article which can be read in full at https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/womens-jail-campaigners-demand-trans-33750904

Kate is right of course. The whole notion of self identifying is nonsensical, and only brings advantages to the men trying it on who get super special treatment . There are many disturbed individuals who need to be contained safely, but the needs of others also need to be considered, in the case of men . Women will be put in danger in a men’s prison, obviously. What is seriously lacking is adequate mental health services , education and training.

She's right.

The thread title made my head hurt.
What is a trans male?
You mean a transman? So a female wanting to be seen as a man?

Either way, the content seems to make sense.
I wouldn't throw a female into a male prison... no matter how "not like other girls" she thought she was.

In my work I've represented a few female to male transmen staring down the barrel of prison sentences. They have ALL wanted to go to female prisons - they know the danger of male prisons and how they will be treated there. I can't see any biological female wanted to jump sides - I can't say the same for male to female - not because they're predatory (as is the worry on MN) but because they too believe they will be abused by male inmates because they present as female. I of course don't think they should be allowed in the female estate, but I sympathise with their difficulties and more needs to be done to help vulnerable prisoners.

Some of the men who claim they are women are undoubtedly predatory. It doesn’t have to be one or the other and pretending only nice men will transition is simply a fools game.

Whilst this is true, trans women are far from the only vulnerable male prisoners. More needs to be done to protect them all, not just this one group. If I were the mother of, say Zahid Mubarak, I'd be pretty angry if special arrangements were made to keep trans women safe in men's prisons, but people like my son were still thrown to the wolves.

Absolutely right, Kate Coleman. Violent, disturbed, yes - but female, so should be in women's prison. Being violent is much more prevalent in men, but it is not part of the definition of a man.

How awful to be assaulted and murdered for a fiver and a packet of cigarettes. That poor, poor woman.

I don't know Earlly's history, but I can't be the only one who is thinking that adding testosterone to the mix in a woman or girl who is raging inside from having suffered SA or is experiencing homophobia internalised and external is not a great idea.

Also, I wonder why there is a growing trend of female offenders claiming to identify as men after conviction? What is in it for them when facing prison?

Missed the editing window:

In the first para of my post above I was thinking about the police reassurance that rapists will no longer be recorded as women and housed in women's prisons - for women's safety. I thought how sad that men claiming to be women become men again when the prison service thinks they are a danger to women. As if that is what makes a man a man.
It's as bad as thinking that a man can become a woman if he is sufficiently attractive.

Can't help thinking that if you house female prisoners in men's prisons, you will have pregnant inmates.

Deleted

Exactly. Even if no-one cared about what happens to the adults, it's utterly reprehensible to bring a child into all this.

This headline is misleading-the person in question is female and so should be in a womens prison.

I wonder why there is a growing trend of female offenders claiming to identify as men after conviction? What is in it for them when facing prison?

I wonder if such action reflects and optimism that because men who transition after conviction have featured in news stories when they've been spared prison on the grounds of their transition, they will also be spared prison if they transition, on the grounds of considerably greater vulnerability if they were to be placed in the male estate.

I can't currently logic puzzle my way through how to express my other thoughts so I'll stop here.

Ah... Yes, that could be it. And especially with the prison accommodation crisis. Hell of a gamble to take, though.

Nasty, violent- but still a woman
Articles need to very clearly specify the terms
transwoman and transman as the general public often don’t know

Does anyone know how women who claim a trans identity are treated in the more batshit American states. I know in some of them a rapist claiming to be a tw would be off to the women's prison before he could finish saying 'I am a woman', but I've heard nothing regarding prisoners going the other way. It must have happened though.

Women, however they identify, should not be imprisoned with men, even men who claim lady brainz.

Males need to be in male prisons irrespective of how violent (or not) they are or how girly they look.

And prisons need to take care of their prisoners.

Bad behaviour in male prisons is not a female prisoner's problem to solve.

FFS I wish people wouldn't use terms like 'trans male' when they're talking about a female!

I can just about accept 'transman' (no space), but the words 'male' and 'female' are absolutely about sex and in no way related to identity. I read 'trans male' as 'male who is trans', which is just a male. But that article is using it to mean a female, which is just plain WRONG.

No wonder people who are unfamiliar with the Identity Shitshow get confused!

Sorry about the thread title. It was late and night and didn't proof read before posting. Unfortunately my typos are getting worse (not enough sleep / getting older). Could ask MNHQ to change title?

The problem is that even if most of us, and the public at large, would agree that in terms of prison a trans woman should be in a men's prisons and a trans man in a women's prison.

But unfortunately for many who claim they have "changed sex" part of that is to be able to access / prove them right, is to be accepted into institutions or whatever of the sex they claim they now have.

So if they aren't speaking up for that, who or how would it be decided.

Which of course ignores the underlying problem of violence in prisons.

I thought, but may be wrong, that some prisons had a "trans" section as this seemed for prison staff the only workable solution.

Not sure what % of the prison population is / claims to be trans.

The headline is misleading, females together, males together - simple. No trans nothing.

You may think that, I may think that.

The point of the article is the fact that women are having to argue for it.

As there are many who think otherwise!

Saw this article and unfortunately both archive.is and archive.ph dont seem to be working, so not sure how to share it as behind paywall.

But if interested you can regiater wih the Economist to read it for free.

In the spring of 2023 Jennifer Barela returned to her cell at the Central California Women’s Facility (ccwf) in Chowchilla to find “a large man” sitting there. Her new cellmate had been sentenced to life in prison in 1982 for murder, had changed name, self-identified as a woman and been transferred to ccwf.

Other female inmates have had similar experiences since California passed law sb132 in 2020, allowing prisoners to be housed according to self-defined “gender identity” not biological sex. The law does not require them to change their body before transferring, and then lets them request their cellmate. When it was passed, Shawn Meerkamper of the Transgender Law Centre (tlc) said, “This bill is a necessary…harm-reduction measure that will allow our trans family to seek safer situations while incarcerated.” Trans inmates have spoken of the benefits. In other states, too, laws and policies are allowing a trickle of trans prisoners to transfer.

But some female prisoners claim that inmates from men’s prisons are gaming the new system and that a small but growing number of men convicted of violent and sexual crimes are being locked in cells with women. Some women’s groups warn that other proposed laws could turn this initial trickle into a flow. A bill at committee stage in New York state would “presumptively” house inmates based on their self-declared “gender identity”.

Continues at https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/09/26/americas-growing-row-over-policies-for-transgender-prisoners

Scotland had recorded one trans-identifying female held in the men's estate a couple of years ago. It is possible this was an error, especially given how bloody confusing the terminology is for everyone.

Shawn Meerkamper of the Transgender Law Centre (tlc) said, “This bill is a necessary…harm-reduction measure that will allow our trans family to seek safer situations while incarcerated.”

And the women? The ACLU attitude (final line) sums it up.

Undoubtedly some transgender prisoners are vulnerable. tlc says that “prisons and jails routinely subject transgender people in their care to…harassment, sexual assault and violence”. The inspector’s report said 19 of the 22 inmates transferred, and 16 of the 28 due to be, said that they had been victims of violence because of their gender identity; 20 of the 22, and 17 of the 28, said they had been threatened. Some change is now happening, as trans inmates win lawsuits for being denied “necessary” medical care.
The women’s groups point out that women are vulnerable, too, and should not be put at risk in order to protect vulnerable inmates in men’s prisons. Studies in 2016 and 2017 found that nearly 90% of women in American prisons are victims of previous sexual assault. Help from civil-rights groups is scarce. In response to an inquiry about inmates moving from male to female prisons in Washington state, the aclu sued to block release of the data

archive version for those for whom it works: https://archive.is/OD99f