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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gisele Pelicot, utterly floored by this

382 replies

twoboystwodogs · 14/09/2024 16:55

I am totally stunned by what happened to Gisele Pelicot, it is beyond horrific. The violation, the betrayal of trust, and that so many 'normal' men thought what they were doing was OK. I am struggling to find words. I'm not wanting to belittle all the other horrendous cases of violence against women. But to be drugged in your own bed by your husband and your husband allow other men to come in and rape you and he films it and he puts it on the Internet and encourages other men to do this to their wives. For over 10 years. What the actual f###? How much more of this abuse are women going to have to take before something is really done to stop it?

BBC News - Women moved by defiant Gisèle Pelicot in France mass rape trial
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg5g24rr6lo

Gisele Pelicot

Women in France moved by defiance of Gisèle Pelicot in mass rape trial

As her story has emerged, she has become a symbol of courage and resilience.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg5g24rr6lo

OP posts:
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ChateauMargaux · 23/09/2024 11:00

Public letter signed by 200 men in France: * *

To all the men for whom the Pelicot trial is a turning point, essayist Morgan N. Lucas proposes a roadmap to put an end to boys clubs.

More than 200 male celebrities have signed up, including Gaël Faye, Guillaume Meurice, Waly Dia and Gilles Lellouche. Many say that the trial of the 51 rapists is in fact the trial of masculinity. Many take offence at this, finding it fashionable to be indignant because they are lumped together rather than to be outraged at the atrocities orchestrated by Dominique Pelicot and condoned by so many other men. But the question remains: seven years after the start of #MeToo, where do we stand? What have we learned? How have we positioned ourselves? Where are we when our mates, our colleagues, our brothers behave in a sexist way or say sexist things? Where are we when women are attacked? No doubt busy questioning the credibility of the victim, while claiming that ‘not all men’, least of all us.

And yet, as the Pelicot case proved, male violence is not a matter for monsters, it's a matter for men, for the average man.

To say ‘all men’ is to talk about systemic violence perpetrated by all men, because all men, without exception, benefit from a system that dominates women. And since we are all the problem, we can all be part of the solution.

So where do we start when we realise that patriarchy is running out of steam, that the old world is dying?

First and foremost, we stop believing ourselves to be indispensable. We realise that women don't need us, and even less so when it comes to feminist liberation. Above all, they need us to stop putting obstacles in their way. Understand that our big egos prevent them from moving forward, that the ‘not all men’ only serve to reassure you, not them. It's not enough to say ‘I'm not like all men’, here words have no value in the face of the scale of the violence. They have no value unless they are followed by concrete action on a daily basis.

So here's to those for whom the Pelicot trial is the tipping point. To those who refuse to continue to participate in a system that, in order to exist, needs to dominate half the population. It's a little late, but there's still time. However, don't think that the mission is to play the hero, don't liberate them, they've been doing it for centuries.

A few months ago, in an interview, an actor said he was ready to get involved but asked for a roadmap.

Here it is, given by a man to other men, because we're going to have to stop asking women to do our work for us.

Let's stop thinking of women's bodies as disposable. Let's always make sure we have the consent of our partners, let's stop seeing it as an obstacle but rather as the necessary foundation for all our relationships.

Let's take charge of our emotions, stop navel-gazing, stop reversing the burden of victimhood, and agree to question ourselves.

Let's unlearn what we've been taught and told about masculinity, let's stop thinking that there is a masculine nature that justifies our behaviour. There is no dominant nature, just a desire to dominate.

Let's examine our many privileges and put them to work for the common good, and then, in the long term, agree to lose them altogether. As a reminder, the ultimate goal is to put an end to this gendered organisation that induces ‘a hierarchical division of humanity into two unequal halves’.

Let's educate ourselves continuously and thoroughly, and stop thinking that because we've read a feminist book we can now tell women the ins and outs of their struggle.

Let's learn to take feminist words seriously, and not just when they come out of a man's mouth. We are simply repeating what feminists have been saying for centuries. It would be a good idea to start believing the people behind these theories directly, without waiting for the messenger's face to come back to us because it looks like us.

Let's stop perpetuating boys' clubs and protecting our male counterparts. Let's show solidarity with the victims, not the aggressors.

Let's understand that if no woman in our circle confides in us about the violence she has suffered, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. For example, just because you don't have any shells in your living room doesn't mean there isn't a war going on. Male violence is a systemic reality. We urgently need to move away from our own experiences to forge a more adjusted vision of the world. There is also an urgent need to show ourselves worthy enough of trust so that women can finally tell us about their realities without fearing our reactions.

Let's really listen to women when they tell us about their needs and their limits. If we stopped being defensive for two seconds, we'd probably be surprised at what we can learn when we're not busy justifying ourselves. Let's not just listen to them when their tone is pleasant. They are sad and angry for good reason, so let them tell us so.

Let's not wait for a woman to tell us what to do before getting down to work. We have two eyes to see and analyse our environment, so we know what needs to be done. Because it's also a mental burden to have to tell us what to do.

And finally: let's do all this in silence, without shouting it from the rooftops, without expecting applause or congratulations.

We can never say it enough: ‘ally’ is not a self-assigned status, it's a noun and a verb. It's not just something we say, but something we do, 365 days a year. It's a role that should cost us, at the very least, a little of our personal comfort. And if you want to get involved right away alongside women in the fight against sexual violence, you can take part in the Women's Foundation's #NotAllMen campaign.

So there you have it, your roadmap. From now on, none of us will be able to say we don't know what to do.

P.S. It's highly likely that other men will criticise you for undermining your virility. If that's the case, it's a sign that you're on the right track. Keep up the good work.

Written by Morgan N Lucas (who is biologically female and trans.. but nevertheless, I thought the words and the sentiments worth sharing, despite them not coming from a biological male. (Yes - in this case, I think it matters!)

https://www.liberation.fr/idees-et-debats/tribunes/proces-des-viols-de-mazan-plus-de-200-hommes-signent-une-feuille-de-route-contre-la-domination-masculine-20240921_TXUFM4QHOVAD7BOALPIKBKD6HE/

Among the contributors: Guillaume Meurice Humorist Ouissem Belgacem Writer Gaël Faye Writer Gilles Lellouche Actor Eddy de Pretto Singer Bruno Sanchès Actor Grégory Montel Actor Alexis Michalik Playwright Alex Ramirès Humorist Julien Ménielle Youtubeur Martin Winckler Doctor Kevin Razy Humorist Waly Dia Humorist Cyril Dion Director Juan Arbelaez Chef Marco Prince Musician Waxx Musician Mehdi Kerkouche Dancer Pierre de Maere Singer Mathieu Palain Journalist Jérôme Niel Humorist Maxence Lapérouse Musician Eloi Spinnler Chef Arnaud Gallais Co-founder of the M'endors pas movement and Mouv'Enfants Emmanuel Noblet Actor and director...

Lors de la manifestation de soutien à Gisèle Pelicot, et à toutes les victimes de viols, à Paris, le 14 septembre 2024.

Procès des viols de Mazan : plus de 200 hommes signent une feuille de route contre la domination masculine

A tous les hommes pour qui le procès Pelicot est un point de bascule, l’essayiste Morgan N. Lucas propose une feuille de route pour en finir avec les boys clubs.

https://www.liberation.fr/idees-et-debats/tribunes/proces-des-viols-de-mazan-plus-de-200-hommes-signent-une-feuille-de-route-contre-la-domination-masculine-20240921_TXUFM4QHOVAD7BOALPIKBKD6HE

newtlover · 23/09/2024 11:36

I can't take this in without being distracted by the knots this person must tie themselves in if they are actually female

...I mean, why has no actual man written this??

NoBinturongsHereMate · 23/09/2024 11:53

Tooting33 · 22/09/2024 09:52

As if it couldn't get any worse - anyone know if this tweet is true?

x.com/aak1880/status/1837099382887346553?s=46

For those not on twitter it's apparently a video of one of the defence lawyers miming to "wake me up before you go go".

Obviously it's really important to have solid defence lawyers to avoid miscarriages of justice but they shouldn't be taunting victims of crime.

It's true. She's confirmed it by 'apologising' (taken out context, very sorry if it's been misunderstood - some apology!).

NoMumLeftBehindLiz · 23/09/2024 13:28

Daily Mail reporting today that Dominique Pelicot is also charged with raping and murdering a 23-year old estate agent in Paris in 1991.
For some reason this news is placed at the end of a piece on the youngest man accused of raping Gisele. Am searching for other reports.

NoMumLeftBehindLiz · 23/09/2024 13:31

Oh possibly old news, have seen it was reported elsewhere earlier in the month now. Ignore me, obviously behind the times.

turbonerd · 23/09/2024 13:46

NoMumLeftBehindLiz · 23/09/2024 13:31

Oh possibly old news, have seen it was reported elsewhere earlier in the month now. Ignore me, obviously behind the times.

Absolutely not. That piece of information is very important to remind people of.

He had form, and good cover, which is quite normal for men like him.

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 23/09/2024 14:17

turbonerd · 23/09/2024 13:46

Absolutely not. That piece of information is very important to remind people of.

He had form, and good cover, which is quite normal for men like him.

It calls into question some of the claims in his 'mea culpa'. Caveats include, he wasn't taken to trial and I can only go by public accounts in newspapers.

Obviously, these events pre-dated his retirement (claim that boredom prompted him to this).

The account that I read mentioned 2 rape/murders of young estate agents and both involved the use of drugs in sedation. He claimed that he started using drugs with GP after he met a nurse online who advised him on the dosages and appropriate drugs.

I wonder if this gives 'unreliable narrator' wiggle room that might exculpate any of the other men on trial with him or those who are unidentified and whom he might name.

RaspberryParade · 23/09/2024 15:51

newtlover · 23/09/2024 11:36

I can't take this in without being distracted by the knots this person must tie themselves in if they are actually female

...I mean, why has no actual man written this??

Coul;d not agree more.
And given all the recent attacks on Feminists in France by tra particularly Stern, it feels like self serving bollocks.

DreamHolidays · 23/09/2024 16:41

You’ll all be relieved that the trial will now be partially under closed doors to protect these men….

Autumnweddingguest · 23/09/2024 17:39

AlexandraLeaving · 14/09/2024 19:01

I don't think it's necessarily always HATE (though for some it is), it's thinking we're irrelevant - not full humans. I find that really chilling. And on such a large scale as in this terrible story, it really beggars belief. I am finding that really difficult to get my head around.

I just watched the 3-part drama about the Maitlis-Prince Andrew interview. There's a speech in the final episode when she talks to her husband about PA's arrogance, linking it to Epstein's arrogance and that of her own stalker - that certain men just want what they want and it simply never occurs to them to question whether they pursue it. One line went something like: Whenever he walks into a room the only thing he ever thinks about is himself.

At a (imo only very slightly) less heinous level this is true of every single man who is capable of walking out on a pregnant woman, a young family, a wife or child who develops additional needs. He simply thinks of what he wants - a shiny new wife/ a life free of broken nights' sleep, a salary to spend all on himself not on tedious children's kit and clothes and outings. That simple single pursuit of self-pleasure and self-reward seems to run very deep indeed in far too many men.

MaybeDawn · 23/09/2024 17:56

When I was 15 (mid 80s) we had family friends who lived in a very rural area of France. We went on holiday to visit them and they booked a cottage nearby for us to stay in. Whenever my mum and I walked into the local village to do some shopping or just went for a walk down the lanes, the amount of men who openly stopped and stared at us or shouted suggestive comments at us was astounding. Even when we walked through the local town, men actually pinched our bottoms and made creepy comments.
Neither of us were great beauties, in fact, no English man/boy had ever shown any interest in me and my mum was just an ordinary middle aged woman. We laughed it off at first, then it became quite scary and we stopped going out without my dad. There was a definite difference in the French men's attitude towards us.

DrBlackbird · 23/09/2024 18:21

newtlover · 23/09/2024 11:36

I can't take this in without being distracted by the knots this person must tie themselves in if they are actually female

...I mean, why has no actual man written this??

Because no man would think this?

To say ‘all men’ is to talk about systemic violence perpetrated by all men, because all men, without exception, benefit from a system that dominates women. And since we are all the problem, we can all be part of the solution.

Because a man would say ‘but…not all men’

Really not surprising that the author was a woman/trans man. It’s unfortunate if they think they can help redress toxic masculinity though as they won’t.

Appalonia · 23/09/2024 18:27

The fact he did it because he was ' bored'!!!! WTF. Man, get a hobby. So so blase and cruel. Your wife isn't a toy. Words cannot express just how awful this ' justification ' is...

Appalonia · 23/09/2024 18:42

NoMumLeftBehindLiz · 23/09/2024 13:28

Daily Mail reporting today that Dominique Pelicot is also charged with raping and murdering a 23-year old estate agent in Paris in 1991.
For some reason this news is placed at the end of a piece on the youngest man accused of raping Gisele. Am searching for other reports.

There was a post on Twitter today saying that the probability that they committed this crime and then the upskirting incident with such a huge gap with nothing happening was very low. As we know, this kind of behaviour is a pathology. I'm wondering whether the French police are now looking at other similar crimes within that time period...?

ChateauMargaux · 23/09/2024 18:47

I cannot believe the court will protect these men - they are dangerous to women. The police should examine their hard drives and browsing history - I would bet that these are not isolated offences.

RaspberryParade · 23/09/2024 18:49

Latest rapist on trial Joan K
'In November 2019, on the date of one of the occasions he is accused of sexually assaulting Gisèle Pelicot, he was absent for the birth of his daughter."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/23/dominique-pelicot-trial-new-defendants

WanOban · 23/09/2024 18:59

we're going to have to stop asking women to do our work for us

At last!

RaspberryParade · 23/09/2024 19:03

NoBinturongsHereMate · 23/09/2024 11:53

It's true. She's confirmed it by 'apologising' (taken out context, very sorry if it's been misunderstood - some apology!).

she is quite insane

RaspberryParade · 23/09/2024 19:13

NoMumLeftBehindLiz · 23/09/2024 13:28

Daily Mail reporting today that Dominique Pelicot is also charged with raping and murdering a 23-year old estate agent in Paris in 1991.
For some reason this news is placed at the end of a piece on the youngest man accused of raping Gisele. Am searching for other reports.

Please can you post the link, Ive just spent 10 mins on that hell site without being able to find it, I feel quite sick at the tsunami of sexist sleaze Ive just waded through.
God its a vile rag.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/09/2024 19:23

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13881201/amp/Youngest-man-rape-Monster-Avignon-wife-day-daughter-born-six-quizzed-court-today.html

In a separate case, Pelicot has been charged with raping and murdering a 23-year-old estate agent in Paris in 1991.

The former electrician - who is sitting in a wheelchair surrounded by prison guards for the hearing - has also admitted one rape in 1999, after DBNA testing linked him to the case.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/09/2024 19:26

Guardian

Dominique Pelicot is also accused of the rape and murder of a 23-year-old estate agent in Paris in 1991. Sophie Narme was drugged, raped and stabbed in the chest.
Another estate agent, 19, was attacked in similar circumstances but escaped after fighting back. Police have said DNA extracted from blood at the scene matched his profile.

amp.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/sep/02/man-accused-of-enlisting-strangers-to-drugged-wife-goes-on-trial-in-france

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/09/2024 19:27

More from the Mail, it's quite graphic so I'll just include the link.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13847613/Picturesque-home-respectable-suburb-Monster-Avignon.html

RaspberryParade · 23/09/2024 19:37

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/09/2024 19:26

Guardian

Dominique Pelicot is also accused of the rape and murder of a 23-year-old estate agent in Paris in 1991. Sophie Narme was drugged, raped and stabbed in the chest.
Another estate agent, 19, was attacked in similar circumstances but escaped after fighting back. Police have said DNA extracted from blood at the scene matched his profile.

amp.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/sep/02/man-accused-of-enlisting-strangers-to-drugged-wife-goes-on-trial-in-france

Thank you.
But by god thats sloppy reporting, it really pisses me off.

It doesnt say if he was accused in 1991, or now in 2024 for the crime in 1991.
Because if he was accused then, how could we be were we are now?
And if he is accused now, how have they found out just now, his blood DNA ?

lcakethereforeIam · 23/09/2024 19:41

According to the DM article (although the DM so feck knows if it's accurate)

And in a shocking twist to the story of Pélicot's appalling crimes, it has emerged that the bureaucratic French legal system missed a golden opportunity to stop him in his tracks more than 14 years ago.

But for the legal red tape, he might well have been prevented from becoming what his own daughter described as 'one of the worst sexual predators of the last 20 years.'

In 2010, it was at a Carrefour supermarket in Collégien, a town in Seine-et-Marne, only five miles from Noisy, that Pélicot was caught by security guards filming up customers' skirts.

He escaped with a derisory €100 fine as part of a plea bargain – an alternative procedure to prosecution, allowing a perpetrator who acknowledges his guilt to be tried quickly.

But that year, the national automated genetic fingerprint database matched Pélicot's DNA with a trace of sperm found on Estella B.'s shoe eleven years earlier.

Yet because the Estella B. case was closed in 2001, the DNA 'match' was not used.

'There was a mess at the time,' said a judicial source close to the case. 'The information remained in a blind spot of justice, and Pélicot remained free. He was arrested ten years later, after raping and inviting dozens of men to rape his wife.