An entertaining evening

[VimesandhisCardboardBoots]

I went to watch a band last night at a local bar with DP.

It's always been a fairly "inclusive" place, a few pride flags, a couple of trans rights are human rights stickers around the place etc. But last night I found a new development, gender neutral toilets.

It's always been a central set of sinks, handryers etc, with mens and women's leading off. Now there's a big sign saying gender neutral and the pesky pronouns have been removed and replaced with "Cubicles and Urinals", and just "Cubicles"

I walk into the "Not the mens, honest guvnor!" , because I'm a male and a creature of habit. Annoyingly, the single cubicle is out of order, and I'm not fan of urinals (I have the shyest bladder in the world) so I shrug, decide to take advantage to this new gender neutral world and head over to the "Not the ladies".

As I exit my cubicle, I give a pair of women a bit of a fright. I see them looking back at the sign doing the confused "Am I in the wrong place" thing, so I say "Sorry, it's gender neutral now", to which one of the women mutters something like "You really should use the mens". I shrug and head back downstairs.

A little later I need the loo again, I head back the working cubicles. Turns out me and the mutterer have our bladders synced as as I exit she turns up again. I get a death glare as I walk past.

Woman returns and goes to the bar, I do too shortly after, and next thing I know she's pointing at me and telling the bar man "It was this man". I give a questioning look and the barman says "Sir would you mind using the mens?"

I ask where the men's are, and he clarifies "the side with the urinals". I reply that I didn't need a urinal, I needed a cubicle and that the only ones that worked weren't near the urinals. To which he replies "That side isn't really meant for .... you"

At this point the woman realises I'm not the problem, this policy is and starts on the barman. "Would it be for him if he shaved his beard, wore a skirt? Because I wouldn't be comfortable then either!". I wander off with my beer, leaving them to it.

I don't really know the point of the thread, it just amused me and I thought it might amuse others too.

So it amuses you to frighten and upset women. Charming.

@VimesandhisCardboardBoots thank you so much again for your empathy and efforts. I'm sorry to hear your update on many levels - the sheer tunnel-vision of the owner, his prejudice, that utter ignorance of and indifference to the female experience... I wonder if he's fearful of what he may read here - I can't imagine he truly believes it's a hotbed of hate (so irrational), whereas it could force a difficult conflict with that family member. That's not to sympathise with him - his wariness of being exposed to something he thinks may upset him, even as he opts to expose women to increased risk... Gah! Anyway, it could make you feel quite hopeless, but your namesake would, I'm sure, feel similarly to you and be proud! You can wear the lilac today, Vimes (Pratchett reference - couldn't resist...!)

Sorry it went that way, but thanks for trying.

DP never really mentions anything like this, I wonder if she's just lucky, or doesn't even bother telling me because it's just a part of life.

Probably the latter. I've certainly never bothered mentioning it to my DP - although I may rethink that now; I always considered it pointless, but of course if women don't talk about it men don't know.

You also kind of get used to it.

Then a particularly bad incident (I think most women have had at least a few that generated an absolute bolt of THIS-IS-IT terror and crazy heart rate for half an hour afterwards) or a concentration of incidents (as for me this month) forces you into facing up to your vulnerability and the sheer unfairness of it all for a period...

...before you wrap that self-protective "that's life" acceptance back around yourself again. We already have to be vigilant enough in public spaces that to exist in a state of permanent, conscious anticipation of these moments, would be exhausting. That, of course, is the trauma state a significant proportion of women DO* *live in, permanently - imagine that. But for the rest of us, after being frightened into temporary fury or hyper-alertness for a period, we just get back on with life.

The cruel thing is, though, that for so, so many of us, encountering these mixed-sex toilets in itself catalyses those emotions - of course it does. It's an immediate, in-your-face reminder of our vulnerability, of the worst of those moments, of the indifference of society to this.

I dislike the word triggering - over-used & abused? - but as it's taken so very seriously in so many contexts now (I imagine the barman found his chat with you rather triggering!), then why not this one? Because mixed sex spaces can be triggering as hell for us, before you even consider the very real, statistically-proven, increase in physical risk they bring.

(Owner, not barman - sorry).

I did have another minor one. I didn't mention it as I'd promised not to, and also thought it may seem rather ridiculous in contrast to the others, as well as, again, a bit too neatly timed. But, since Vimes said to go ahead, and my post above made me realise we diminish and dismiss these things too much...

On the walk home on the same day I'd noticed the "die whore" graffiti, about 500 yards from that, 5 or so young teen lads poured out of a bus right by me screaming "Biiiitches!!!" as loud as they possibly could. It wasn't targetted at me - no idea what or why they were doing it, but think it may have been a "greeting" to friends behind a hedge - but I did flinch a bit and feel a bit upset by it (not yet fully out of that hyper-alert fury state while on that particular path at least).

I then spent the rest of the walk wondering about the word, and if my dislike and irritation was justified. I think so. It's diminishing and proprietary in a way the (so few, in comparison!) "male-specific" slurs I can think of simply aren't - especially in the way it's often used in popular culture nowadays: "Your bitch!" etc. It was just unthinking kids - but that's the point, isn't it, really? So much un-thinking-ness in all of this, like it's not even worth the thought. Well, it bloody well is!

(Btw, readers are probably thinking I live in a pretty dodgy area in a bit of a dodgy city. It's maybe worth noting that it's actually a pretty nice area, because that's another variable the policy-makers seem to disregard - how much more likely women are to be affected by these behaviours and mixed-sex changes in areas where there's proportionately less money and policing and community support etc.)

Well done VimesandhisCardboardBoots. How sad it often takes men speaking up to help women get what they need, even if not successful on this occasion.

As a gender non conforming man* I make clear I still use male facilities even in a skirt or dress. I have many times and the skies haven't fallen in. I admit sometimes feeling nervous how men will act (less over the years) but probably pales in comparison to women's fear of men in what they believe to be exclusively female places. Would the setup described in this post help? Not at all, it is simply open to everyone, from violent men to women who need single sex spaces. Owners like these need hit where it hurts hardest - in the pocket.

*I don't wish to offend anyone not believing in gender or conformity, just we can't pretend things aren't coded male, female or acceptable for both. Males especially get more suspicion for pushing back on these conventions, change happens slowly.

How on earth do loos that 'anyone at all' can use make the barman's sibling feel safer anyway?

A while ago I was getting some support for my mental health. As I entered the virtual room the psychiatric nurse was just adding her pronouns and asked if anyone wanted theirs adding and then asked the man with the bright pink hair if that made him 'feel safe now'?

I didn't say anything at the time but I did contact them, in writing, to say it made me feel unsafe and that maybe putting things like, 'nurse', 'counsellor' etc might be more useful.

This degradation of the word “safe” actually makes me very angry. It feels hugely thoughtless and irresponsible. A local primary school used it in that way on a noticeboard last year - something like, “Use kind words - everyone has the right to feel safe here.” Whatever it was, it made it very clear indeed that “safe” meant “emotional”, not physical, safety. And all I could think was, “This school has 3-year-olds and up, and a high proportion of kids with English as a second language. They speak in halting monosyllables. What unambiguous, simple word does this leave them when they need to disclose to a teacher how a violent home life makes them feel, or the fear of physical injury they felt during a bully’s attack?” This school was diluting - introducing unnecessary ambiguity into - key vocabulary these vulnerable kids need. Again, an Orwellian distortion of language acting to limit the concepts that can be expressed, or, at the least, hobble the people wanting to express them.

So many venues doing this now it's lazy shit from the owners - small trendy places to the Old Vic. It needs to stop as NO WOMAN likes this and some men I've spoken to don't particularly enjoy sharing spaces with women either. I'm so,so, SO sick of this hassle every time I go out to an event.

The first so-called ‘gender neutral’ toilets I can remember encountering were in Liberty’s, in London, of all places, and it was quite some years ago now. What had always and forever been ‘the ladies’ was suddenly open to all and there was a queue of very, very uncomfortable looking men and women, all avoiding each other’s eye and looking desperately unhappy to be there. It felt so wrong it was almost tangible. And it’s a small loo, only about 4 cubicles, so everyone trying to ignore each other but failing miserably as you’re pressed up together queuing.

I was actually quite stunned at how very unsettled it made me feel and how being in a space with only other women actually DID make me feel ‘safe’ - something I very suddenly didn’t feel at all when there were men there.

Yes. Physical safety sacrificed on the altar of emotional "safety".

OTOH I think I'm seeing more labelled as 'male' and 'female' (north west inc some theatres). Whether those clear labels are respected or not is another matter of course

Interesting. I've noticed that and wondered if it's 1) orgs deliberately seeking to make single-sex explicit in the current context, OR 2) I'm reading too much into it and being overly optimistic. Maybe it could be the former, then... Fingers crossed...