An entertaining evening

[VimesandhisCardboardBoots]

I went to watch a band last night at a local bar with DP.

It's always been a fairly "inclusive" place, a few pride flags, a couple of trans rights are human rights stickers around the place etc. But last night I found a new development, gender neutral toilets.

It's always been a central set of sinks, handryers etc, with mens and women's leading off. Now there's a big sign saying gender neutral and the pesky pronouns have been removed and replaced with "Cubicles and Urinals", and just "Cubicles"

I walk into the "Not the mens, honest guvnor!" , because I'm a male and a creature of habit. Annoyingly, the single cubicle is out of order, and I'm not fan of urinals (I have the shyest bladder in the world) so I shrug, decide to take advantage to this new gender neutral world and head over to the "Not the ladies".

As I exit my cubicle, I give a pair of women a bit of a fright. I see them looking back at the sign doing the confused "Am I in the wrong place" thing, so I say "Sorry, it's gender neutral now", to which one of the women mutters something like "You really should use the mens". I shrug and head back downstairs.

A little later I need the loo again, I head back the working cubicles. Turns out me and the mutterer have our bladders synced as as I exit she turns up again. I get a death glare as I walk past.

Woman returns and goes to the bar, I do too shortly after, and next thing I know she's pointing at me and telling the bar man "It was this man". I give a questioning look and the barman says "Sir would you mind using the mens?"

I ask where the men's are, and he clarifies "the side with the urinals". I reply that I didn't need a urinal, I needed a cubicle and that the only ones that worked weren't near the urinals. To which he replies "That side isn't really meant for .... you"

At this point the woman realises I'm not the problem, this policy is and starts on the barman. "Would it be for him if he shaved his beard, wore a skirt? Because I wouldn't be comfortable then either!". I wander off with my beer, leaving them to it.

I don't really know the point of the thread, it just amused me and I thought it might amuse others too.

I think @VimesandhisCardboardBoots it's a pity you didn't stand up for the woman, and actually point out that it's the bar's decision to fuck up the toilets that's the problem.

Women don't get listened to about this stuff; men do. It's very very far from ideal, but we need men to speak up about this. Every time.

Had it just been me and DP out I might have done. Of the three bands playing that night, one contained a family member and one contained a friend. Neither had played yet at that point, and me causing trouble and getting kicked out might have led them to get involved, which I didn't want.

And more selfishly, while I don't care about talking about my issues on an anonymous forum, I find it an intensely embarrassing topic to talk about with friends and family. Had one of them asked the question "Why can't you just use the bloody urinal", I'd have been most uncomfortable.

As a young woman I hate sharing what I consider should be a "female space" with men and I would have looked and commented if I'd seen you there.
HOWEVER that isn't to say that you are the problem. You're not. Places that think they're "doing the right thing" by allowing men and women to mingle ARE the problem.
When women like me stop using those places they might realise this.

You feel sorry?

Is that it?

Obviously the policy is crap but I don't think you have any idea of the fear a male body instils in a women when she is alone with a man she doesn't know.

That is heightened by being in a place where she is vulnerable.

Why did you choose to say it was gender neutral? A sorry ladies, I need a cubicle and the one next door isn't working would be more appropriate.

'Stage fright' is just a common euphemism for blokes who have trouble with urinals.
But if a bloke needs to use a cubicle and it's broken, the obvious solution is for him to complain to the management without specifying why, the assumption will most likely be he needs to shit. So the embarrassment is a bit of a weak excuse for being part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

Next time please use the urinals rather than amusing yourself with making women feel uncomfortable.

Yes, what @eatfigs and others have said. You clearly don't care what the woman felt.

I don't really know the point of the thread, it just amused me and I thought it might amuse others too.

It doesn't amuse me, no.

me causing trouble and getting kicked out

You could have made a complaint politely (this should be standard!). You could have made a complaint at the end of the evening. You can make a complaint now.

And as Errol says, the only detail you need to give is that you needed a cubicle - no need to say why.

Stop the cowardly excuses and do something useful.

You're right that this was caused by the bar being idiots, not by you. You didn't do anything wrong - though neither did the woman. If the bar doesn't want people who are obviously male using the "cubiles" area their sign needs to be labelled "female people only, of any gender" and their "Urinals" area needs to be labelled "male people only, of any gender" and they need to put sufficient staffing maintenance anf resources into making sure there's always a working cubicle in the latter for those who need it. There is no objective verifiable difference between you and a transwoman so if transwomen are allowed to use the cubicles side you should be too - which is why it's a ridiculous policy.

What am I going to make a complaint about really?

This situation actually benefits me, it's now one of the pubs where I least have to worry about my psychological issue. The only thing I'd have to complain about is that according to the barman I'm the wrong kind of man to use that toilet. And I'm not going to try and get him in trouble when it's his bosses policy that's the issue, not him.

And I am sorry if I intimidated that woman. Just as I'm sorry if I intimidated someone when walking down the street, or it's just the two of us in a tube carriage at night.

In those cases, I try to minimise that if I can. I switch carriages at the next station, or take a different route home so I'm not directly following the person on the street.

I'll do the same in the pub if I can. If the cubicle next the the urinals is free, then I'll use it. I'll even wait for it. But if it's broken, then I'll use the others.

I'm not going to avoid using a mixed sex facility if it's available, just like I wouldn't stop using the tube. The problem isn't that I'm using it, the problem is that it's mixed sex in the first place.

While, as I've said above, I hate men intruding on "a female space", I don't believe the OP should be chastised here. It wasn't his fault the cubicle wasn't working and it wasn't his "fault" that somebody had decided the place overall was gender neutral. His only fault was in his wording. If he'd said something like "apparently I'm allowed to use these cubicles", it might have gone down better.
Having said all that, isn't THIS a female space?

I'm not sure that chastising the OP is the right approach here either. I'm glad that he's raised it as an issue on a feminism board and is on-side. I don't think we can expect everyone to be a warrior in every aspect of this battle.

This is an interesting one - not so much the increasingly familiar situation, but to have a male perspective on it. I agree with most of what the OP says - you seem very fair-minded and sensitive to the issues involved - but I will confess that I, too, found the tone of the title, in the context of the story, actually a bit upsetting. It’s OP’s prerogative to find it amusing, of course, and I’m grateful for the care and empathy he displays alongside this… but I can’t help but focus on the woman, wondering about her, putting myself in her position. What was a funny and thought-provoking anecdote for the OP could so easily have been, for her, the moment she began to restrict her movement in public spaces due to a realisation that she’s less safe than before, as well as something she’s still feeling angry and worrying about days later.

I had a similar experience recently, leaving a female loo in a café into a tiny, mixed space, to find a man there. It would have taken less than a second for him to push me back into the cubicle, and at the far end of a large, quiet café, behind several doors, that would have been that. I was wholly reliant on him being one of the good ones. And it’s a big ask of a woman to rely on that (see also #notallsnakes and the poisoned M&M analogy). I’m no shrinking violet, but it brought it home to me that I am slightly less safe in that café than in various others, as something to factor in as part of any future visit there. This simply isn’t fair! And it’s certainly not equality, equity or inclusion. The male/female experience of this is so diametrically opposed that even a series of largely very sympathetic (in both senses) posts from an evident “ally” (ugh, forgive me!) demonstrate this fairly starkly. It also shows why so many other men just fail to get what this means to women on any level, at all.

I disagree. The OP said I'm not fan of urinals (I have the shyest bladder in the world) so I shrug, decide to take advantage to this new gender neutral world and head over to the "Not the ladies".

Men are as entitled as women to relieve themselves in privacy and comfort.

What am I going to make a complaint about really? This situation actually benefits me
and that is the crux of it, isnt it. This situation, all of it, from the olympics rights down to going to the pub, benefits men and disadvantages women.

I'm not sure why people are attacking the OP. He didn't do anything wrong and demonstrated a ridiculous situation.

A man who comes on a site called Mumsnet, on the Feminist board, to tell us how 'amusing' he finds a situation where he upset a woman, and we're not to chastise him?

Right.

Men need to not intimidate and upset women, it's the bare fucking minimum we can expect.

Upsetting a woman is not okay. And it's sure as fuck not 'entertaining' for us.

Bloke with a shy bladder here. I would've had to simply flee the venue; no chance I could get my plumbing to work in that situation.

@Usernameisnotavailabletryagain, I think my post explains it pretty well (see also Arabella’s less wordy response!) I’m not a fan of outright attack on someone for putting their own interests first while demonstrating some understanding of ours… but I don’t find it easy to read, as it does inadvertently stress the Grand Canyonesque gulf between the average male versus female experience. I do wish the OP had felt able to focus on this proportionately more, and speak out on our behalf. We so desperately need this.

(I also have a shy bladder even in cubicles, and it can be surprisingly life-limiting, so I get that perspective, too!)

Her distress amused you?
You are the fucking problem.

To be clear, my amusement was at the pubs handling of things, and at the idea of them not wanting me to use a gender neutral toilets because I'm the wrong gender.

The woman's distress doesn't amuse me. She didn't seem distressed, just annoyed, but previous posters have made me think about that. One poster in particular pointed out that maybe this was the moment that made the lady less likely to go out to bars in future. I'll be honest, I'd not even considered that, that this event might change a woman's life. It shows that even after a decade on Mumsnet and years on FWR, I still don't get it.

I've used advice on this board to complain to the school, my MS and MP when they changed toilets to gender neutral is my DDs school, and apparently I still don't get it.

I can take that on board.

I do still however take issue with the idea that this was my fault though. I used a facility that was labelled for my use. That was all.

There's another pub in town that went with gender neutral bathrooms a few years ago. In their case, the mens and women's were at different ends of the pub. They ripped out the urinals from the mens, chucked a couple of extra cubicles in there, and changed the signs on the doors. The two toilets were then functionally identical, and people just used the one closest to them. Any man who used either toilet was likely to intimidate any women in there, but what else could they do?

Funnily enough, that pub isn't there any more. Women stopped going, it became colloquially known as "The Sausage Party", and so men stopped going too.

I know the owner of Friday nights pub well enough, so I'll try and pop in when it's quiet at some point and try and have a sensible chat with him, because you're all right, it's probably the least I can do.

It is, OP. And you can tell him that most women will not say anything at all, they'll just never come back, and probably tell all their friends that the place doesn't have female spaces.

Any man who used either toilet was likely to intimidate any women in there, but what else could they do?

Leave. Complain.

Otherwise you are putting your comfort/entertainment/convenience over the wellbeing of a woman. It's not just or fair to suggest that women's alarm and distress is permittable, just so that men can continue to enjoy their evening entertainment.

'Intimidation' is not equivalent to 'inconvenience'.