An entertaining evening

[VimesandhisCardboardBoots]

I went to watch a band last night at a local bar with DP.

It's always been a fairly "inclusive" place, a few pride flags, a couple of trans rights are human rights stickers around the place etc. But last night I found a new development, gender neutral toilets.

It's always been a central set of sinks, handryers etc, with mens and women's leading off. Now there's a big sign saying gender neutral and the pesky pronouns have been removed and replaced with "Cubicles and Urinals", and just "Cubicles"

I walk into the "Not the mens, honest guvnor!" , because I'm a male and a creature of habit. Annoyingly, the single cubicle is out of order, and I'm not fan of urinals (I have the shyest bladder in the world) so I shrug, decide to take advantage to this new gender neutral world and head over to the "Not the ladies".

As I exit my cubicle, I give a pair of women a bit of a fright. I see them looking back at the sign doing the confused "Am I in the wrong place" thing, so I say "Sorry, it's gender neutral now", to which one of the women mutters something like "You really should use the mens". I shrug and head back downstairs.

A little later I need the loo again, I head back the working cubicles. Turns out me and the mutterer have our bladders synced as as I exit she turns up again. I get a death glare as I walk past.

Woman returns and goes to the bar, I do too shortly after, and next thing I know she's pointing at me and telling the bar man "It was this man". I give a questioning look and the barman says "Sir would you mind using the mens?"

I ask where the men's are, and he clarifies "the side with the urinals". I reply that I didn't need a urinal, I needed a cubicle and that the only ones that worked weren't near the urinals. To which he replies "That side isn't really meant for .... you"

At this point the woman realises I'm not the problem, this policy is and starts on the barman. "Would it be for him if he shaved his beard, wore a skirt? Because I wouldn't be comfortable then either!". I wander off with my beer, leaving them to it.

I don't really know the point of the thread, it just amused me and I thought it might amuse others too.

@VimesandhisCardboardBoots I was pretty much with you until you asked what you could do after the event.

FWIW I have a brother who suffers from 'shy bladder' so I have an idea of how difficult and embarrassing it can be. Just as difficult and embarrassing as it is for women who don’t want to find themselves in public loos with men, after we’ve spent all our lives going to sex-separated toilets with nobody thinking twice about this being problematic in any way.

And I can sort of see where you’re coming from in describing it as you did - that the ill thought-through decision by the pub might have seemed - albeit grimly - amusing when they proved unable to explain their witless attempt to be 'inclusive'.

But….but….can't you see this IS the moment for you, as a man, to go back to them, even after the event, and complain? Because even if you don’t feel it affected you in the end, it DID affect the women. The ones you do take pains to be aware of, to think about, to try not to intimidate. Women speak up against this kind of tedious nonsense and are ignored. Yes, it shouldn’t need the men to point it out and be heard but we all know that’s where we are now. More men need to speak up and say NO, we don’t want this either. Everyone say they’ve had enough of trying to solve a ‘problem' that didn’t exist in the first place.

Edited to say - just read your update. Thank you. I’m glad you’re going to speak to the owner.

What am I going to make a complaint about really? This situation actually benefits me

<retort redacted, because of your follow up below>

I'll try and pop in when it's quiet at some point and try and have a sensible chat with him, because you're all right, it's probably the least I can do.

Thank you. Complaints should not be limited only to what inconveniences you personally, and often a comment from someone not directly affected can have more weight.

Thank you from me, too. This is so important.

And thank you from me too. DH and I hate gender neutral toilets and we both stop going to places where they have them - and tell them why.
If everyone did this, businesses might realise what a ridiculous situation it creates.

The woman's distress doesn't amuse me. She didn't seem distressed, just annoyed, but previous posters have made me think about that. One poster in particular pointed out that maybe this was the moment that made the lady less likely to go out to bars in future. I'll be honest, I'd not even considered that, that this event might change a woman's life. It shows that even after a decade on Mumsnet and years on FWR, I still don't get it.

Not less likely to go in to bars, less likely to go anywhere. The stats are that 1/4 women have been raped or sexually assaulted, although I think that is on the low side, I don't know any woman who has not had something like that happen.

There were two women in the toilet so that means it is a 50% chance you retraumatised a rape victim.

You mention a daughter at school, imagine her being in the ladies that night. Would you be happy with a man using the cubicle next to her? What about in a few years when someone is pestering her in a club and she heads to the ladies to get away?

I'm glad you are trying to understand and thank you for complaining. The sad thing is that you will probably be listened to due to the Y chromosome.

I think a fairly good way to try to understand is, "Do I want this for my daughter?"

Also - distress often shows up as anger. It's less embarrassing to get angry in public than to cry in public.

"heads to The Ladies to get away" is a VERY good point. We've all done that (I and my galpals have anyway) and if I couldn't do that I certainly wouldn't visit that place again.

I've just got in, and need to sound off. This thread seems as good a place to put it as anywhere, as it really does reflect why we don't want men in our spaces.

I currently live in a large city, and use public transport or walk almost everywhere.

An hour ago, a random man passing on a bike shot past me and made a noise that was clearly intended to shock me. It did make me jump. This was the fourth time a male stranger's hectored me in public in as many weeks.

There was the one who shouted, "Next time..!" What had I done to deserve that? Well, I'm ashamed to admit it, but... I'd walked down a street. (He'd charged into my path at a steep angle, clearly expecting me to jump to accommodate him, and I hadn't. He was big, and I was in danger of being knocked flying, but thankfully, we just brushed shoulders). As I walked on - eyes ahead, don't engage - he loudly indulged his righteous anger from 20 yards away.

My other sin was similarly stark. It was bad of me, I know, but I actually sat on the seat next to a man on a busy bus, expecting that he would move a few inches over so as to take up only his own seat and not a third of mine as well. That one resulted in a full 30 seconds of explosive rage, this time 5 inches from my face.

And the other? Well, I confess, I was really unreasonable this time - I was walking down the street two feet to the left. I mean, who could resist making a sudden hissing noise at an average-looking youngish woman as you pass in those circumstances.

I want to say sorry for the tone, but why should I be? This is what we live with, and I'm so, so, so SICK of it. It's exhausting and humiliating and rage-inducing.

To male readers, please just try to imagine it. And, when you do, remember that the aggressor is up to twice your size and weight, and that, that very same morning, you read in the paper about two more rapes, and one more femicide, and another abuse case.

So we keep walking, or quietly sitting, avert our eyes and try to put it out of our mind. But the next time we go to the loo and there's a man in there, we really want to cry or rage, because the sheer relief of that rare female-only space - permitted because we're so, so much more vulnerable there than in open public spaces - has been taken away.

But we hide our feelings, because we'd be a bloody fool to let anything more than mild annoyance flicker across the face for a second.

After all, having simply walked down the street has been provocation enough for several several male strangers this month.

@Catiette I hope your post might give OP and any lurking men some food for thought.

Thank you so much. Feeling much better now for typing this, actually. Therapeutic posting!

I did actually yell very loudly at today's disappearing back! But then I immediately beat myself up for 1) being so rude (conditioning!) and 2) being so stupid (risky!) It was just there have been so many recently. You get used to it in a city, but, at my age, it really tends to be maybe once a month or so, not once a week! I don't know what's got into them!

So then I came here to get it off my chest, knowing that people would understand 😊 - including the OP, who I think is very open to our experiences - and thinking that maybe something good could come of sharing it, too.

It must be so hard to for men imagine, but the more who are open to trying, the better...

After all, having simply walked down the street has been provocation enough for several several male strangers this month.

@Catiette just being alive and female is where you’re going wrong. 😎

But yes, what you describe is pretty normal. A beautiful rant - rant away.

There was a great thread on Twitter by #menatwork (a really good male ally’s account) asking what men generally did when they found themselves walking behind a woman - there’s some hope that men are learning?

Sorry, on my phone so can’t link to specific tweets from the X app Apologies

Another day, another walk to work. 15 minutes ago. Eyes fall on the poster showing local female politician. Scrawled across the top of it - “Die, whore.” You’d think I was timing posting for effect - or maybe you wouldn’t. Anyway, I’m not (biro - not clear without a closer look; or maybe overnight?) Hopefully won’t have any more now for a while, & won’t post if I do - not my thread. But it is very demoralising.

(And it wasn’t a hate crime, at any rate. So that’s good, right? 🙄)

https://x.com/MenAtWork_MC/status/1832796293581742382

Should do it!

When I was 19 and in the second day of my job I found myself alone with a man who got hold of me and forced his mouth on mine. I was shocked that there was nothing I could do and scared that the rest of the staff were upstairs and I didn't know what he might do next.
It didn't occur to me to say anything or return to that job.

A local bar recreates a very similar setup. Two rooms marked with what's in them (toilets, cubicles etc) down an isolated set of stairs where live music is on the upper floor.
They get some good events on but this setup puts me off returning.

@YellowAsteroid and @ArabellaScott Thanks, both - I'll have a look. Could do with a boost! :)

Thanks @ArabellaScott I’m a phone dunce.

I was walking with my 5yr old the other day ie slowly. The male jogger behind me decided none of these options was ok for him - he grabbed my shoulders, pushed me aside (not hard, I'm petite, he was 6ft) and kept jogging happily along.

Honestly, it felt like an assault.

That's because it was.

Bloody hell, just caught up with this thread and some of these stories! Especially your initial rant @Catiette

I'll occasionally get some random make a noise behind me trying to make me jump etc, but it's a yearly thing if that, and generally its just some teenager or drunkard being a twat for the sake of it and I'm usually bigger than them, so it's not exactly scary.

DP never really mentions anything like this, I wonder if she's just lucky, or doesn't even bother telling me because it's just a part of life.

Anyway, I have an update. I am no longer welcome at the "Arcadia".

I popped in yesterday after work to chat to the owner. After chatting for around 15 minutes I brought up what had happened last Friday. He initially thought I was complaining about what the barman had said to me, said he'd have a word with the barman about it and clarified that "anyone at all can use either toilet".

I reiterated that that wasn't the issue, and that it was that I felt he should rethink the whole gender neutral bathroom policy. At this point he revealed that he had a transgender sister and he wanted to run a pub where she felt safe.

I pointed out that he was making his sister feel safe at the expense of the safety of 50% of his customers, and offered to show him this thread. At the mention of Mumsnet the debate descended sharply and he very quickly said that "people with your views aren't welcome here". I asked if I was barred, but he said I wasn't but that he'd prefer not to see me there.

So that's that I guess. Suppose I don't need to worry about which toilet to use there the next time it's out of order!

And don't feel you need to curtail your rant @Catiette . Its an education for me if nothing else

Is he saying that he is refusing service to people with gender critical views, a protected belief under the EA? Do you think he would put that in writing?

At this point he revealed that he had a transgender sister and he wanted to run a pub where she felt safe.

So his concern was for his male sibling. Not any of his female customers?

He sidestepped that I think by clarifying that I wasn't actually barred. I don't think he'd actually stop me if I went back in there, I'd just likely get stink eye all night. Won't be trying it though, not interested in spending my money there.

I wouldn't take it any further anyway. There's not a huge number of live music pubs in town, so it's a reasonably important income stream for my aunt and a couple of my friends. I don't want to jeopardise that for them.

Haven't quite worked out what I'll tell them next time they've got a gig there though!

It's exactly the same as saying gay people, or Irish people, or immigrants 'aren't welcome'. The discrimination is exactly the same.

But thank you for raising it with him. It helps.