The woke roll back continues

[Hoardasurass]

Jack Daniels has ditched all it's woke policies and it's lgbtq equality index membership

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/08/22/jack-daniels-owner-scraps-diversity-targets-amid-anti-woke/

Now I am all for equality of opportunity and any barriers that restrict such equality of opportunity should be sought out and removed (for example unpaid internships in the media or fashion).

But achieving equality of outcomes and ensuring that the workplace is a reflection of society is both impossible and undesirable because it removes individual freedom of choice as well as removing meritocracy , the best person for the job and who wants to do the job,

@newmummycwharf1

"Simple stats are the beginning but then doubling down on the detail and identifying the barriers and then crafting solutions that ensure the cream rises to the top regardless of background is what DEI should be about"

I agree that identifying barriers to ensure equality of opportunity is available to all regardless of background should be what DEI be about- but it's not.

At a corporate level it's all about quotas - x% female senior managers, y% disabled etc etc. It gets glossed over that the biggest marginalised and underrepresented group in education and high incomes right now is white working class males.

It gets glossed over that the biggest marginalised and underrepresented group in education and high incomes right now is white working class males

👏👏👏

Taking the case of the plumbers. Whilst no one is born being an excellent plumber, a greater number of boys than girls wish to become plumbers. There is no institutional sexism preventing females becoming plumbers, in fact it is a lot easier to become a plumber if you are female than male.

It is sexism though, its the societal expectations that are put on both girls and boys from a young age, caretakers are male, teachers are female at primary. Even at secondary woodwork-male, cookery- female. Its that reinforcement every day that girls do this boys do that. Thats the reason is female solicitors not male who sacrifice for their children.

Definetely not at all grades. And there is a lot of data to show this and indeed it is evident when you walk through the door in most hospitals. I work in multiple hospitals and have worked in over 20 in the past 3 decades

It's just a fad, it'll fade out.

Indeed - the crafting of solutions has been poor in most places. But equality of opportunity is still a viable, business savvy goal. We just need to get the methods right

In my large global company we have a large DEI dept. Currently HR are always putting up a chart saying that the goal is by 2025 to have 30% women in senior positions. Yay. …. but I have had it confirmed that women means self Id and that 30% women could in fact mean 100% men as the 30% women can be blokes with womanly feels. I have raised this as an issue and said it’s discriminatory to real women. In our HR records you can self id as various nonsense categories , there is no longer sex reporting as such.
Every time we have a global meeting now and someone spouts this target I will on the chat function point out that it’s not necessarily real women so what’s the point 🤷🏻‍♀️

Completely scrapping any and all DEI policy is not a positive thing. What so many companies a d organisations do need to do is go back to the drawing board and ensure that such policies are as balanced as possible and not disproportionately influenced by any one agenda.

It is not "woke" to recognise that a pregnant woman under consultant care may need a lot of time off for appointments, at set times because that's when the clinics run, someone with a physical disability may need an adapted workstation or that it's not acceptable to take the piss out of a gay man or or ostracise a Muslim.

Yes, it's definitely all trans people's fault 🙄

"Woke" is just the new way of saying any attempts to progress society are"political correctness gone mad", and that was a thing way before the trans debate went mainstream. If someone hates trans people so much they're happy to also throw gay people, disabled people and people of colour under the bus along with them, that's their own fault and their own problem. Trans people aren't responsible for other people's bigotry.

@BaronessEllarawrosaurus

"It is sexism though, its the societal expectations that are put on both girls and boys from a young age, caretakers are male, teachers are female at primary"

Is it societal expectations or simply freedom of choice? If a young girl stated she wanted to be a plumber when older - most people would say "good on you", sure there would be some counter pressure from her peers but there are no institutional barriers preventing her. Equally there are no institutional barriers preventing men becoming primary school teachers but there is a lack of men freely choosing to do so.

The problem with the woke hard left is that they want to create a workplace across all sectors that reflects society even if that comes at the price of freedom of choice or simply what candidate is best for the job.

Something that was started with good intentions has gone out of control, and this is the outcome of that.

It's the same reason that LGBTQ+ acceptance is slipping back.
This is the pendulum swinging too far back the other way due to heavy-handed activists turning many people away from their cause.

It's what we've been warning about on this board for years.

Actions meet consequences.

I’ve replied to this already but your argument is far too simplistic. When I have said reflective I mean reflect different ethnicities, abilities, classes, gender, ages, disabilities etc. Not just whether someone is black or white. I don’t therefore understand choosing that specific example because it’s far too simplistic and like I said previously, where are all the black managers and owners in the PL if there really is no issue with social mobility or opportunities or discrimination?

@1dayatatime it is societal expectations that makes it sp much harder for a girl to say she wants to be a plumber because plumber is not something that is shown in society as a role for females. The same is true for childcare, males won't go into it as its portrayed as a female job. It is not a free choice in an equal society

The woke left are who? There is no one stopping anyone doing any sort of job if you take that logic. However, there are invisible glass ceilings and barriers or gender expectations that make many jobs unachievable for a lot of people.

Do the black footballers in the Premier League a number of whom are exceptionally wealthy want to own Clubs or want to go into management?

Many of the Premiership clubs are owned by people who are not white.

@BaronessEllarawrosaurus

e it is societal expectations that makes it sp much harder for a girl to say she wants to be a plumber because plumber is not something that is shown in society as a role for females. The same is true for childcare, males won't go into it as its portrayed as a female job. It is not a free choice in an equal society

There are no institutional barriers preventing girls becoming plumbers indeed quite the opposite in that it is easier for a female to become a plumber than a male. Regardless of what is the norm or what sex the majority of plumbers there is no longer any widespread societal expectation that they should be male.

If I contracted a plumber and a woman arrived- yes my first instinct would be surprise but in a "good on you" way and secondly I would feel more comfortable having a woman in the house than a man if I was on my own.

Sure there would be some older dinosaur men who would react negatively but so long as the female plumber did a good job then hopefully this would break down such negativity.

But it should come down to freedom of choice- if a young woman wants to become a plumber or a young man a primary school teacher then crack on - embrace the positive feedback and ignore the negative feedback.

What the woke left is trying to do is create quotas which removes that freedom of choice.

The problem for me with DEI is that it never includes diversity of opinion. And if you poke holes in DEI as a concept there is a tendency for people to claim that you are pro-discrimination or happy with only white males at the top of organisations. There are demonstrably many issues with DEI policies plus it has become a massive industry that is corrupt, obsessed with identity and often discriminatory in it's attempts to be "inclusive". It really is no wonder that people are pushing back.

@Combattingthemoaners

"The woke left are who? There is no one stopping anyone doing any sort of job if you take that logic. However, there are invisible glass ceilings and barriers or gender expectations that make many jobs unachievable for a lot of people."

The woke left are those that want to achieve equality of outcome through quotas rather than equality of opportunity allowing for individual freedom of choice.

What is stopping anyone doing any sort of job is knowledge, training and suitability for the job. Now I might really want to be a heart surgeon but if I don't have the experience then I won't get the job. I might apply for a senior job which I am capable of doing but if there are 300 equally able candidates then my chances are low.

The biggest obstacle to women progressing to higher level jobs is access to affordable and quality childcare not invisible glass ceilings".

Stating that the cards are stacked against women or certain ethnic minorities stops people trying and destroys ambitions which is far more harmful than any vestiges of racism or sexism that are still left in hiring processes.

I think those who are defending workplace DEI policies here are (rightly) defending what they believe those policies should be aiming to achieve.

The problem is that in reality, what is a good and noble idea or intent is invariably poorly thought through in its execution. Because to do it properly is hard, and to be honest requires fundamental change at a societal level. No corporate firm can realistically achieve that, so they stick to the easy 'virtue signalling' wins.

I don't think it's a bad thing that we question whether DEI policies, as they are, actually achieve their purpose. In fact I think it's necessary if we truly want them to achieve what they're supposed to.

Diversity policies have become all about trans people. Has anyone recently attended any training about eliminating misogyny or meetings to discuss how the workplace/documents can be more accessible to people who may struggle at present? Using unclear compelled language has harmed access to services. Anyone still involved in company outreach programmes to inspire those still at school? That is the sort of thing that has fallen by the wayside because it's all become about a very vocal minority.

I wont be celebrating the changes but I do understand them and hope that businesses will refocus their efforts where they can be beneficial.

Opinion is not a protected characteristic.

Not true. Philosophical belief and political opinion are protected.

One of the areas this is a real problem is in universities where the vast majority of lecturers are left leaning. Where is the push to diversify so there is a balance?

@PickAChew

"Opinion is not a protected characteristic."

That's rather scary- I do hope you aren't suggesting that there can't be diversity of opinions with regards to DEI or for that matter anything else.

Its a shame but I think DEI initiatives have gone to far in some organisations. In my old job DEI was pushed relentlessly, we had it written as the first objective in our appraisals. In one excruciating meeting we were reminded that it wasn't enough to be inclusive, we had to give examples where we had addressed our colleagues non inclusive behaviour. Never mind that we were a small office that had never had issues with DEI, we all sat there in silence as no one could think of an example, no one had ever made a complaint and we all agreed non of us had witnessed any examples. We wasted hours on hypothetical scenarios then all went back to work feeling it was a complete waste of time.