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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another crack in the wall - Denmark

58 replies

Didactylos · 22/08/2024 07:37

There has been the start of an interesting debate in Denmark where the serving minister for Digitalisation and Equality, Marie Bjerre (Venstre) has published an opinon piece (Kronik) in which she argues for a change of focus in the trans debate and a recognition that sex based realities and the rights and boundaries of women need to be considered. This has obviously provoked a backlash from trans activist groups but she has stood by her guns, giving further TV interviews and adressing an event at Cophenhagen Pride last week (where she was not warmly recieved and many turned their backs on her) in which she continues to call for a change in the debate with focus to balancing the rights of all rather than trans demands
She uses the Danish performance artist/provokeur Ibbi Pippi as an example of the issues arising

This is the article in Danish but I will post a (poor) translation of the main points in the next post
https://jyllands-posten.dk/debat/kronik/ECE17337761/ibipippi-har-faaet-mine-oejne-op-for-hvor-problematisk-juridisk-koensskifte-er/

A small thing in a small and very liberal/accepting nation (and one of the first to bring in self ID due to a Dentons Playbook style campaign) but just another sign of the debate changing worldwide

Ibi-Pippi har fået mine øjne op for, hvor problematisk juridisk kønsskifte er

Hvis vi overser det faktum, at der kun findes to biologiske køn, er vi ikke bare i overhængende fare for at lande et skørt sted. Den outrerede identitetspolitisk debat kommer til at skygge for de ligestillingsproblemer, der reelt findes.

https://jyllands-posten.dk/debat/kronik/ECE17337761/ibipippi-har-faaet-mine-oejne-op-for-hvor-problematisk-juridisk-koensskifte-er

OP posts:
Beefcurtains79 · 22/08/2024 07:39

Excellent, hope she encourages others.

Didactylos · 22/08/2024 07:42

Article in translation

Ibi-Pippi has opened my eyes to how problematic legal gender reassignment is

If we overlook the fact that there are only two biological sexes, we're not just in imminent danger of landing in a crazy place. The outspoken identity politics debate will overshadow the equality problems that actually exist.

There is something that has bothered me for a long time. Something that gets increasingly crazy. And something that contains the seeds of a society where the majority must conform to the minority. And now I can no longer remain silent: Wokeism has gone too far. We need a showdown with today's pervasive focus on gender identity. Otherwise, I am afraid that the debate about gender identity will go so far that it removes the focus from the big and very real equality problems we still have in today's Denmark. If the majority suddenly has to adapt to the minority, I am seriously afraid that the fight for equality will be derailed. And not only that, it destroys women's rights and, for that matter, men's as well.

As a liberal person, I naturally celebrate diversity. I am totally in favor of all people being able to live their lives the way they want and be who they want. That we all have the freedom to do what is best for ourselves - as long as our actions do not affect others.

But I was about to get the coffee in my throat when, shortly before the summer holidays, I could read about the performance artist Ibi-Pippi Orup Hedegaard, who has been sentenced to a year and a half in prison for vandalism against a Jorn painting. Ibi-Pippi identifies as female and has been legally reassigned ... and as a result has expressed a desire to serve her sentence in a women's prison.

I completely agree that Ibi-Pippi has stated that the legal gender change should be understood as a provocation. And of course you can identify yourself however you want. But over the summer it has become more and more clear to me how this particular case focuses on the challenges of legal gender reassignment. And that cases like this in the extreme directly violate women's rights.

Let me go through just some of the concrete consequences that can have when a biological man who looks like a man and who is the father of six children identifies as a woman and therefore gets a woman's social security number: For example the provo artist has recently received a questionnaire from the University of Copenhagen, which is about women's menopause. A questionnaire with questions revolving around previous births, menstruation and symptoms of menopause.

In this connection, Ibi-Pippi chose to express on her Facebook profile that she was "very happy to be able to contribute to science in this way". But seriously, it damages women's legal position if research on women's biology is contaminated with answers from biological men. And then there is the issue of serving time in a women's prison. It might sound a bit colorful on paper and perhaps a bit small in some people's ears. But to me it is absurd that you can even get the idea that Ibi-Pippi has to serve time in a women's prison. I hope and believe that will not happen - because what about the rights of women inmates not to serve time with a man?

Continues

OP posts:
Omlettes · 22/08/2024 07:42

Great news, and this is a fantastic statement.
It makes me feel very happy indeed.

WhereAreWeNow · 22/08/2024 07:44

That's good news. Thanks OP.

Didactylos · 22/08/2024 07:45

Continues

Ibi-Pippi has also previously demanded to change next to women in a changing room in a swimming pool. Fortunately, another option was indicated, and Ibi-Pippi was not successful in her appeal at the Equal Treatment Board. But it shows the challenge. We must not end up in a situation where women in the country's swimming and sports halls can experience changing clothes next to a biological man whose gender identity is female. I am sure that the vast majority of Danes look on with wide eyes when individuals or vanishingly small groups of minorities demand that kind of special treatment. Was it just a single swallow with a con artist.

But it isn't. Internationally, we hear stories about athletes, e.g. a shot putter and a swimmer who are biologically male but have switched genders and therefore compete against females. Currently, doubts have been raised about the gender of two female boxers in connection with the Olympics. What is up and down in that debate is difficult to determine. But if it was me as a woman being put up against someone who was biologically male, I would be furious. Unequal competitive conditions are far-fetched and a potential bomb during women's elite sport. Then you might as well cancel women's sports. We also see the advance of the excessive woke culture in other areas, e.g. the desire that on social media or at the start of a meeting you must mention the pronouns you would like to be addressed with. If someone needs it and to relate to their chromosome composition, that is of course fine. But honestly, it's probably not something we all have to declare service for.

To me, this is an example of us as a society being required to change something fundamentally to accommodate a very small minority in the holy name of wokeism. And as Minister for Equality, it worries me greatly if we can no longer talk about women and men or women's and men's equality problems. When we are reminded that it is no longer called "men", but "people with dicks", as DR's P3 wants us to say. Or when we have to say that it is "people" who menstruate, "people" who are pregnant, or "people" who give birth. It is absolutely absurd. Of course, it is women who menstruate, are pregnant and give birth! Because it is a fact that there are two biological sexes, regardless of what you feel you are or what gender identity you have.

I think we are on a slant when you confuse biological sex with gender identity and gender expression. And yes, I know that. That left-wing critics and others with an excessive penchant for indulgence and self-righteous inclusiveness will probably say that I should just relax. That I have to breathe, shrug my shoulders, and that it will all work out. But I have tried. And it doesn't go away. In fact, I'm just becoming more and more convinced that we have to call it quits. And that's why I'm doing it now with a chronicle like this one. If we as a society overlook the basic fact that there are only two biological sexes, we are not only at imminent risk of landing in a crazy place.

Even worse is that the overt identity politics debates overshadow the equality problems that actually exist. Add to this the fact that the mistaken focus on identity political issues actually also weakens popular support for the many battles for equality that must continue to be fought. Battles that are about creating a society where men and women have equal opportunities. At the same time, we risk a polarization where we put the cohesion in society out of control. As a society, we will have to hold fast to the fact that a trans woman is not and will never be a biological woman. Biology is determined by genes. That cannot be changed. Therefore, there are also limits to which rights transwomen and transmen must have. In my view, biological men should not participate in studies about women's biology and physics, they should not have the right to dress as women, serve time in a women's prison or compete in elite sports for women. As a woman, I actually don't care how these biological men identify. But they are not biological women.

As a liberal, it is absolutely fundamental to me that all people can live their lives the way they want and be who they want. Therefore, I also completely respect that some people want to identify as a different gender. But it is just as fundamental to me that there is a limit where free expression goes beyond the freedom of other people. Because that is exactly what happens if trans women insist on being treated as biological women. And that is precisely why there is a need to say stop. Wokeism must have a limit.

End

OP posts:
Didactylos · 22/08/2024 07:51

One last Danish quote which seems very relevant and pragmatic

“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”
― Soren Kierkegaard

OP posts:
SensibleSigma · 22/08/2024 07:52

Thank you for your translation, I enjoyed it!
Good article too. She’s a brave lady.

I’m surprised about the changing room thing though, I thought Danes were ok with nudity. Perhaps I’m thinking of Swedes.

Didactylos · 22/08/2024 07:54

Absolutely ok with nudity, very much communal changing/sauna and open showers with rules on naked shower/cleanliness before going into the swimming pool and so on, no one bats an eyelid - children in with parents but sex segregated over the age of 8 or so.

OP posts:
Yougetmoreofwhatyoufocuson · 22/08/2024 07:59

The voice of reason, I hope she is heard world wide. Time for the tide to turn.
My granddaughter introduced me to her ‘non binary ‘ friend, a five year old boy and his grinning mother. It can only come from her as he looked completely blank while my granddaughter explained to me that he didn’t feel like a boy. A child will do anything pretty much anything for a parent’s approval and as I looked at his sweet little confused face it just felt like child abuse.

kiterunning · 22/08/2024 08:08

Great news from Denmark.This pernicious ideology is slowly being replaced by realism and sanity.

kiterunning · 22/08/2024 08:11

Didactylos · 22/08/2024 07:51

One last Danish quote which seems very relevant and pragmatic

“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”
― Soren Kierkegaard

I love that.

AnnaMagnani · 22/08/2024 08:12

Danes are totally OK with nudity but they still have female and male changing rooms.

OldCrone · 22/08/2024 08:13

Google tells me that Venstre is a centre right party. So like the UK Conservatives? I was hoping someone on the left was breaking ranks. I don't know what it's going to take to see a shift in attitude on the left.

But Marie Bjerre sounds as though she's been well and truly peaked.

RantyMcRanterton · 22/08/2024 08:16

Thank you for the translation amd that quote as well.

benefitstaxcredithelp · 22/08/2024 08:22

A sensible. Intelligent article in a sea of crazy. Thanks for posting.

FabulousFryingpan · 22/08/2024 08:27

OldCrone · 22/08/2024 08:13

Google tells me that Venstre is a centre right party. So like the UK Conservatives? I was hoping someone on the left was breaking ranks. I don't know what it's going to take to see a shift in attitude on the left.

But Marie Bjerre sounds as though she's been well and truly peaked.

No, Venstre means Left (Høyre would be Right). They' re liberal in the traditional sense, socially left and fiscally conservative.

DrBlackbird · 22/08/2024 08:32

Agree that this is a very welcome statement and also how it would’ve been even better for this to come from a left leaning politician.

But it is still crazy that we’re all lauding this female politician for simply stating the obvious.

Lovelyview · 22/08/2024 08:32

Great article. She's a brave woman.

Didactylos · 22/08/2024 08:34

Venstre is now effectively a social conservative party - confusingly named 'Left' as it was closer to the left wing when started - with a tradition of liberalism
The current coalition in Denmark is made up of Social Democrats, Moderates and Venstre - and was deliberately negotiated to be a centrist coalition with a broad input from left to right. Danish politics tends to produce coalitions with lots of horsetrading, and no huge swings between right and left. Venstre is to the right but not extremist

Ive been trying to find a political axis diagram to show the various parties but am failing miserably, so heres a wiki list in english for anyone interested
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Denmark

List of political parties in Denmark - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Denmark

OP posts:
FrancescaContini · 22/08/2024 08:38

Didactylos · 22/08/2024 07:51

One last Danish quote which seems very relevant and pragmatic

“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”
― Soren Kierkegaard

Fantastic quote! And great article, too.

FabulousFryingpan · 22/08/2024 08:42

Thanks @Didactylos

CocoapuffPuff · 22/08/2024 08:52

But seriously, it damages women's legal position if research on women's biology is contaminated with answers from biological men

Contaminated.

Such a good choice of word. That's it, isn't it.

Womens EVERYTHING is being contaminated by men.

I've not seen that used for the gender Id crap before but I shall use it myself from now on. Its perfect.

Didactylos · 22/08/2024 08:58

bit of google translate there Im afraid.

The word used was 'forurenet' which loosely translates as polluted/contaminated, literally to make impure/unclean
Perhaps a stronger choice of word that used in english - we might have said something milder like confused by, mixed with, adulterated?

OP posts:
CocoapuffPuff · 22/08/2024 09:05

I appreciate the translation issue, but I do prefer contaminated. Polluted is bloody good too. That's how I feel about the whole shebang. Polluted. Contaminated.

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