Another crack in the wall - Denmark

[Didactylos]

There has been the start of an interesting debate in Denmark where the serving minister for Digitalisation and Equality, Marie Bjerre (Venstre) has published an opinon piece (Kronik) in which she argues for a change of focus in the trans debate and a recognition that sex based realities and the rights and boundaries of women need to be considered. This has obviously provoked a backlash from trans activist groups but she has stood by her guns, giving further TV interviews and adressing an event at Cophenhagen Pride last week (where she was not warmly recieved and many turned their backs on her) in which she continues to call for a change in the debate with focus to balancing the rights of all rather than trans demands
She uses the Danish performance artist/provokeur Ibbi Pippi as an example of the issues arising

This is the article in Danish but I will post a (poor) translation of the main points in the next post
https://jyllands-posten.dk/debat/kronik/ECE17337761/ibipippi-har-faaet-mine-oejne-op-for-hvor-problematisk-juridisk-koensskifte-er/

A small thing in a small and very liberal/accepting nation (and one of the first to bring in self ID due to a Dentons Playbook style campaign) but just another sign of the debate changing worldwide

I don't speak Danish but I think I know what 'woke minefelt' is in the cartoon 😉

Great speech, she sounds so sensible. I have an image of lots of middle aged Danish citizens in warm jumpers quietly nodding along.

Thank you for this @Didactylos so good to see women in power speaking out.

The minister has come in for a lot of critisism for not being able to name any Danish examples of the problem (men in womans spaces) apart from Ibi Pippi who is doing it as performance art, (international examples havent been raised much) - but she has countered that by stating that it shouldnt need to happen before setting boundaries.

Great article thanks for posting

From erlier this year, the news story and translation seems adequate:

https://www.danskregnbueraad.dk/nyt/overraskende-klare-meldinger-fra-ligestillingsministeren-der-er-to-kn-og-juridisk-knsskifte-til-brn-er-ikke-endeligt-afgjort

but she has countered that by stating that it shouldnt need to happen before setting boundaries.

She's right.

That principle was previously widely used, and was known as "safeguarding".

Now it has been eroded by contamination (lovely word, I'm using that forever) and will have to be rebuilt, almost from scratch.

It's nauseating that we have to do all that work again.

Thank you for this. Another crack in the wall, indeed. And I love the Kierkegaard quotation.

That's Ibi-Pippi? Of course, appearance shouldn't count for anything here but they're not even trying. Is it a deliberate provocation to promote debate, I wonder?

Edited to say, just read that you said it is indeed performance art.

More voices of sanity.

The debate i Folketinget earlier in the year was really interesting and clear positions were stated- the adults are back in the room.
I put the article up today because now the discussion has been taken out in public, during Pride, and the ' no debate/TWAW mantras' are being openly discussed.
Danskregenbueråd is a group that was set up in 2022, similar to LGB alliance, where LGB and T individuals campaign politically (with cross party contact and no other political alligance) against gender ideology and especially child transition
(Intro page in English) https://www.danskregnbueraad.dk/international

What a brave woman. Thank you for the translation.

I think she is putting it out there and the discussions around this must be very interesting. I look forward to seeing what happens next.

The minister has come in for a lot of critisism for not being able to name any Danish examples of the problem (men in womans spaces)...

So she doesn't know of, and the critics claim not to know of, any examples.

That could be because people who come across examples, in toilets and changing rooms for instance, are afraid to complain through fear of the consequences. And/or that the authorities and the media are suppressing any reports of such examples.

Thanks for sharing that is a great piece

Fantastic article. The majority having to conform to the whims of the minority indeed.
But towards the end she says that men shouldn't be allowed to wear women's clothing. Is that the right translation, or does it mean something like 'for deception'? Because surely people can dress how they like?

I completely agree that Ibi-Pippi has stated that the legal gender change should be understood as a provocation.

So Ibi-Pippi does not have gender dysphoria and does not genuinely believe himself to be a woman? He has abused the legal process purely for his performance art?

Another casualty of using google translate and incompetence Im afraid,
I didnt notice that the word omklædning had a poor translation. It means to dress or to change/shift clothes. But the article refers to Kvindeomklædning which would be understood as a female changing room. (Omklædningsrum) .

I'll have another go at translating that sentence.

'I min optik skal biologiske mænd ikke deltage i undersøgelser om kvinders biologi og fysik, de skal ikke have ret til kvindeomklædning, afsone i kvindefængsel eller stille op i elitesport for kvinder.'

'In my eyes biological men should not take part in research on female/womans biology or physiology, they should not have the right to use female changing rooms, serve their time in female prisons or take part in elite sports for women'

So sorry about that, thanks for pointing out the contradiction, especially as she states in the article several times her support for people living and presenting as they wish.

Well obviously! A man who treats women's needs with such distain as to be art is becoming rather common. I mean, getting out your penis and banging it down on a piano while naked yet declaring that you are a woman and should be treated as one is another style of art too. Apparently.

That's a really prejudiced thing to say. What does "ok with nudity" actually mean?
Men and women have separate changing rooms in Sweden.

@Didactylos having lived in Copenhagen for 2 years 2020 to 2022 - it doesn't suprise me- in my opinion they had lots of sensible things going on - a liberal place but within reason and very pro women and families I felt - Sweden the same

Sorry SweetSwede! I didn’t intend anything bad. Northern European liberality around sex and nakedness is a club used to beat brits for being stuffy and buttoned up.

I’m currently hiding in a cubicle, nonetheless trying to get dry enough to wrestle my clothes on without flashing flesh.
I had the impression of naked saunas and so on. I’ve definitely read people on MN saying it’s disgusting to wear a swimsuit in a sauna.

But obviously I got the wrong impression.

Thank you.

Yes it's unhygienic to wear a swimsuit in a sauna 😀, but saunas tend to be separate for men and women. You sit on a towel.

I just get a bit fed up with British people commenting/ asking me if I like being naked/wear clothes when I go to Sweden. Men asking if I'm "up for it" because Swedish women want it all the time ( apparently)

Anyway.....in Sweden ( and Denmark I think) you have to shower and wash without your swimsuit on before you go into a public swimming pool . But men and women's changing rooms and showers are separate. Not the point of the thread , I know!

I’m sorry so many men are disgusting! Opportunism baked in.

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

And the naked showering is the same in Iceland. I struggled 🤣.

There is a signficant, and often deliberately overlooked, difference between nudity and mixed-sex nudity. And another again between expected and unexpected mixed-sex nudity.

It's similar in Germany to Scandinavia - lots of nudity, but usually single sex. Where it is mixed sex it's clearly signaled as such, so people can choose to participate or not. A nudist beach is very different from a man waving his penis about in a women's changing room.

Same.with Japan and Korea. You'd be thrown out of a public bath for trying to wear a swimming costume - you just have a tiny modesty flannel, and most of the time that's balanced on your head. But a man does not go into the women's bath, or vice versa.