Imane Khelif

[LHayday]

Just reading the thread on here for the first time. What I fail to understand is why so many contributors are so desperate for her to be a man. Someone who has lived their entire life as a woman. Beggars belief.

😂

I would love the percontation point.

But it would take too long to copy and paste it ⸮ . Maybe we should ask MN to add one as one of their icons.

I just tend to use 🙄(possibly rolling my eyes at the thought that anyone would assume I'm being serious)

Percontation point - something I didn't know I didn't know!
'Every day a schoolday' on FWR, and better still, you never know when you're going to learn something and what it's going to be. In this case I've been following the IK discussion, so Olympics, boxing, Algerian society, Morocco-Algeria tensions, genetics, rare genetic disorders - but then unexpectedly- 'percontation'
There are lots of emojis that we could adopt, maybe 💫to represent the embarrassing 'whoosh' we are trying to prevent?

It struck me while reading the last few pages, that the difference here (and where activists are once again misusing words) we are saying that IK looks MALE or whereas when they twist it, they change that to MASCULINE.

So we’re not saying it’s about clothes or muscles, it’s about body shape and composition, which is very different.

For example, when it comes to body fat, there’s a huge difference between healthy levels for men and women, which is why 6 kg weight gain in a person with a smallish frame means very different things for a man and a woman.

I confess I ran into trouble on this one though, because it seemed obvious to me that Khelif, like Semenya, had never really even pretended to believe he was female after puberty. But pointing that out creates a conflict with women who have been dressing in masculine clothing.

For me, there’s a clear difference: someone female wearing men’s clothing probably receives push back, whereas someone male in men’s clothes receives better treatment. Trying to explain the nuance in that to a young, butch lesbian proved impossible though.

And for me, Khelif’s next action is a huge pointer to another difference. The butch lesbian, on having a moment of fame, would embrace that chance to get the message across that “this is who I am and I’m not going to change for you”. That’s a line she has probably taken her whole life, despite the hardships it’s caused. Khelif instead, suddenly embraced femininity. However much pressure, I don’t believe a butch woman would do that as it would be antithetical to everything she has been fighting against her whole life.

It’s not going to bring my beautiful butch lesbian relative back to me though, as she’s now embraced the lies and is supporting men that she falsely sees as similar to her.

Oh yes, they've very purposefully (or so it seems to me) equated man and masculine with male, and likewise woman and feminine with female. Therefore, any given person who dresses in a masculine or feminine way is male and a man or female and a woman respectively. And then they accuse others of being the ones who actually push this (like claiming that JKR only thinks people who wear makeup and dresses are women when she's actually said the opposite).

This is Imane Khelif in 2021, not yet in the global spotlight, still a lightweight at 60kg, and ,as the accompanying text explains, selected as a likely Olympic medallist and promised ' tout le soutien des pouvoirs publics' 'all the support of the public authorities' to achieve that objective.
JO2020: la boxeuse "Imane Khelif peut décrocher une médaille olympique à Tokyo" (aps.dz)

If I was told the person in the photo was a woman, and without the benefit of hindsight in 2024, I wouldn't see anything to cause me to disagree.
The next 3 years of intense training and bulking up to fight at 66kg probably accentuated all of the male physical characteristics that we saw in the ring in Paris.
In a PP I quoted from an interview with a female boxer who put on 6kg to go up a weight class - it made her look and feel out of condition; it did not make her look male. I guess it takes male puberty to make that happen..

So back to Khelif, who I can't help feeling a tiny bit sorry for: having taken someone who doesn't look particularly masculine, and turned them into a big tough bloke, 'les pouvoirs publiques' now done a girly-girly makeover to make them look feminine..

From what the indiscreet coach said, the results of the genetic test came as a shock to everyone. Though there would have been clues such as no periods and no breasts. I guess the phrase ‘late developer’ was used a lot.

I doubt that it was a shock to Khelif and Khelif's mother.

There has been posters who have attempted the position that intense sport suppresses menstruation. However, Khelif started boxing at 17, there was no intense sport prior to that, even if Khelif was a 'late developer'.

It has also been said that a coach invited Khelif at 17 years old after seeing Khelif play football with the teenaged boys.

I don't believe that it was much of a shock to those early coaches at all and I suspect those who then managed Khelif were not shocked really either.

MarieDeGournay

The thing is though that allegations were made against IK. IK was tested and allegedly failed the tests.

The IOC decided to not retest and its there that the problems start.

It has nothing to do with being masculine and everything to do with those allegations and test results. and of course IK's trainer and the IOC's unwillingness to do anything about this.

Simply because the idea of 'living as a woman' (whatever that means) isn't the same as 'being a female'.

This.

Bill Gates could live as a pauper but he isn't one.

Tbf I wouldn't question her womanhood seeing this picture alone.

I'm not up to date with the developments of the last few weeks. Is there actually any further evidence/proof that IK has a DSD aside from the original claim by the IBA?

Yes, the sex test results - that were carried out by two independent labs - have been seen and reported on by a respected sports journalist; they both showed male karyotype. One of IK's coaches has confirmed there is a "chromosome problem" and natural male testosterone levels in a newspaper interview. The IOC retracted their previous claim that "this is not a DSD case".

More details on all of these in the full thread.

I know all this and agree with you, I've been posting about the IBA and the IOC and XX and XY on all the IK threads, I'm not at all minimising the wrongness of IK boxing against women, and the wrongness of the IOC accepting a mere F on the passport as proof of eligibility.

I admit that I have, unlike many posters, retained a shred of something like sympathy - not really that strong, but you get my drift - for IK who I think was caught up in a powerful machine at the age of 17.

Khelif was not courageous enough to stand up to the machine, to the Algerian state, the trainers, a French professor of biology, your millions of fans back home, probably your family, telling you you must win gold in women's boxing for your country, and instead say no, and go back to being a poor nobody in rural Algeria. Which, morally, he should have.

And now, the stupid makeover, which Khelif will never be able to carry off in real life..

I know the real victims are the women cheated out of medals, FrippEnos, I just don't feel right about the whole situation... It's hard to think out loud on a these threads about IK as nobody will have read everything I've said before, obviously - in fact I can hardly remember what I've said before, and on which thread! so please don't mistake my uneasiness about the situation as it affects Khelif as any kind of justification for his participation in the women's boxing. I'm not a wishy-washy liberal, honest

@simmertime

Yes, the sex test results - that were carried out by two independent labs - have been seen and reported on by a respected sports journalist; they both showed male karyotype. One of IK's coaches has confirmed there is a "chromosome problem" and natural male testosterone levels in a newspaper interview. The IOC retracted their previous claim that "this is not a DSD case".

Have they been seen though? We only have the IBA's word at this point, don't we? Happy to be corrected.

Why would Dr. Ioannis Filippatos and the IBA and the WBO lie about the tests?

Particularly since they even publicly stated that they were clear that they would even pay the majority of any appeal to the CAS? The athletes and their teams have not denied the findings. The only thing they keep repeating is that these athletes are ‘women’ and registered as female. Which does not, in any way, challenge the IBA findings because the arguments from the athletes and their team rely on sleight of hand language.

@Helleofabore

Why would Dr. Ioannis Filippatos and the IBA and the WBO lie about the tests?

Particularly since they even publicly stated that they were clear that they would even pay the majority of any appeal to the CAS? The athletes and their teams have not denied the findings. The only thing they keep repeating is that these athletes are ‘women’ and registered as female. Which does not, in any way, challenge the IBA findings because the arguments from the athletes and their team rely on sleight of hand language.

That wasn't my question, though.

I'm asking if anyone has actually seen them bar the IBA - so we aren't relying on just their word. That's all.

BTW - Filippatos/IBA/WBO are all the same, basically.

Happy to be corrected.

You could read this thread fully, or any of the other 5 or 6 on this topic. There are explanations as to who has seen them.

Welcome to MN, Caliga. Interesting first few posts.

Yes SportsWire Magazine as has been repeatedly posted on this thread

And your question does nothing to change the validity of the outcomes reported by the IBA. Because it is false to expect that the IBA would share the test results outside their affiliates. The IOC has the results and lied about having those results. The IOC is considered an affiliate in that it would be acceptable to share the results.

No other group would be in receipt of the results outside of the boxers, their team management, and the IBA and who they notified under their obligation. This is a legal requirement guarding the privacy of the boxers. Who, by the way, confirmed that they would not allow the tests to be publicly released.

So, your point, which seems to be to discredit the results is using falseness to do so.

And Dr Filippatos would be a very easy target to have removed from the medical register and sanctioned if they were making false claims about the results. Hence my pointing out him in particular. His reputation and livelihood is at stake, so again, why would he make false claims?

You know how the boxers could clear up any falsehoods?

They could release the test results themselves. But why should they? That is their private information and apart from the public knowing that they have been failed for eligibility into the protected female category of that sport, why on earth would anyone outside of those legally allowed to know this be told?

Plus they could have taken the IBA to the CAS to have the decision reviewed, with the IBA funding most of that process. Then, their medical records would be made public like Semenya’s was.

Khelif’s team did get a test done in Paris in 2023 and one of the team made a statement about that. Did you miss that?

Asking if anyone else has seen the IBA results would be a weak argument to discredit those results in light of the privacy around medical information, the appeal process available to the boxers, and that the boxers could release the information if they chose to.

The test results have been seen by the IOC, by Sportswire and by IK's team - as detailed in this and other threads. Note that the IOC have never called into question the existence or accuracy of the test results, only criticised the process by which the IBA decided to carry them out.
Note also that IK's team carried out their own sex tests with the same result.

I started to type out more detail on the above, but I think it might be more interesting to consider the alternative - that actually IK is unambiguously biologically female, but the IBA has fabricated some test results. How do you suppose the last few weeks would have played our if that were the case?

In this scenario, it would be extremely easy for IK to destroy the credibility of the IBA by obtaining new test results and publishing tbem. There would also be a very clear course of legal action against the IBA. The IBA and the individuals involved would be finished as international sporting organisers.

Surely not even the IBA would come up with such a lame attempt to falsely exclude someone, which could be so quickly and comprehensively demolished? And surely if they had attempted it, the subsequent events would have been very different.

Yes.

If anything could potentially finish off the IBA it would be them falsely excluding two boxers based on flawed tests. It would be so very easy to prove. And the CAS could be part of that and very easily give a public legal decision.

The argument that the IBA might be falsifying the test outcomes is bizarre in the light of what has and has not been said. It is implausible also because not one of the two boxers or their teams have categorically stated that those boxers have XX chromosomes.

I saw a male face with the female posture I would expect to see in a country where 'modesty' is required in women.

So, your point, which seems to be to discredit the results is using falseness to do so.

And you could make exactly the same argument about every doping disqualification ever - that "no-one has seen the results".

So like so much else in this stuff, my main question is "why are you playing all these word games and conjuring illogical conspiracy theories just specifically on this one area - the attempt to remove women's rights - but no-where else?"

(It's a bit like having targeted rather than universal sex-testing, as IBA has been accused of...)