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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Imane Khelif

805 replies

LHayday · 14/08/2024 20:07

Just reading the thread on here for the first time. What I fail to understand is why so many contributors are so desperate for her to be a man. Someone who has lived their entire life as a woman. Beggars belief.

OP posts:
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28
WickedSerious · 18/08/2024 14:01

annejumps · 18/08/2024 12:54

Terfy friend sent me the following image she's seen reposted by some of our mutuals. 🙄

Stirring stuff.

viques · 18/08/2024 14:37

annejumps · 18/08/2024 12:54

Terfy friend sent me the following image she's seen reposted by some of our mutuals. 🙄

We’ve still got a hill to climb it seems.

ConstructionTime · 18/08/2024 16:18

re: the screenshot; I noticed that the argument goes in circles, seeing both statements posted regularly, with varying persons as examples, at the moment then it's IK.

"transphobia affects all women"
and
"trans has nothing to do with you"

The argument in the screenshot is a strawman logic anyways. I saw a couple of these floating about. No-one from the GC group says IK is not "feminine" enough to "too muscly" and that's why people became suspicious; the arguments and questions are about something completely different.

(fully understanding that the debate is not about trans anyways)

annejumps · 18/08/2024 18:16

ConstructionTime · 18/08/2024 16:18

re: the screenshot; I noticed that the argument goes in circles, seeing both statements posted regularly, with varying persons as examples, at the moment then it's IK.

"transphobia affects all women"
and
"trans has nothing to do with you"

The argument in the screenshot is a strawman logic anyways. I saw a couple of these floating about. No-one from the GC group says IK is not "feminine" enough to "too muscly" and that's why people became suspicious; the arguments and questions are about something completely different.

(fully understanding that the debate is not about trans anyways)

Oh it's all ridiculous, I'm not even sure where to start. Overall the aspect that bothers me most is the assumption that it's JKR and Her Fellow Harpies who all think it's makeup and acting feminine that decide whether someone's female (not even woman but female). Er, no, that would be what the TRAs decided. These same people probably got upset seeing JKR out at lunches with feminists who had short hair and didn't wear makeup because they 'looked like men.'

ConstructionTime · 18/08/2024 18:46

@annejumps "Oh it's all ridiculous, I'm not even sure where to start."

Same, I do a lot of headdesk-ing in my mind - not only about this topic.

The conversation about looks and also the co-opting of IK by the TRA centers very much on a debate about mainstream beauty standards.

The concept goes as follows: women shouldn't wonder when someone looks male, because that's just a superficial beauty standard, women can all look differently [latter part is of course correct].

The conclusion they draw is that it affects all women who look different from the mainstream when other women question their presence in women's spaces.
Thus: "transphobia also affects women who look different because they are being questioned, too". (and the other conclusion is that it's better to welcome TW into women's spaces because whom you suspect to be a TW could be a non-typical woman....).

Completely left out is the important part where women hadn't been so vigilant about neutral looks before, because it was usually obvious that only women are in women's spaces and anyone not looking "typical" (but not clearly male, either) would very likely be a woman, too.

I think that now rather more women who don't look "feminine" are under closer observation by other women because they have more reason to doubt than they used to have before. That means the TRA-arguments have divided women unnecessarily, too, because everyone is more concerned about the negatives than ever.

(Obviously I have no clear definition of "mainstream", "feminine" etc, this is just a general layout of trying to see the structure of the arguments.)

Is there any other source than an article in "Hindustan Times" where IK said others considering IK "trans" would be shameful for IK's family?
I do try to follow the threads but I could have missed that.

ChaChaChooey · 18/08/2024 18:48

I kinda love the stupidity of accusing us of being short haired, hairy legged, dungaree-wearing terves who demand boxers perform femininity to prove female-ness.

Make it make sense!

annejumps · 18/08/2024 18:50

ChaChaChooey · 18/08/2024 18:48

I kinda love the stupidity of accusing us of being short haired, hairy legged, dungaree-wearing terves who demand boxers perform femininity to prove female-ness.

Make it make sense!

Don't forget it's radical feminist who think checks notes all women should give birth because it's radical feminists who think that's what being a woman is

DuesToTheDirt · 18/08/2024 18:57

ChaChaChooey · 17/08/2024 21:33

I think it might be because the retouching is so heavy handed it’s pushed Imane off a cliff and down into The Uncanny Valley?

You may be right!

dangandblast · 18/08/2024 19:14

ConstructionTime · 18/08/2024 18:46

@annejumps "Oh it's all ridiculous, I'm not even sure where to start."

Same, I do a lot of headdesk-ing in my mind - not only about this topic.

The conversation about looks and also the co-opting of IK by the TRA centers very much on a debate about mainstream beauty standards.

The concept goes as follows: women shouldn't wonder when someone looks male, because that's just a superficial beauty standard, women can all look differently [latter part is of course correct].

The conclusion they draw is that it affects all women who look different from the mainstream when other women question their presence in women's spaces.
Thus: "transphobia also affects women who look different because they are being questioned, too". (and the other conclusion is that it's better to welcome TW into women's spaces because whom you suspect to be a TW could be a non-typical woman....).

Completely left out is the important part where women hadn't been so vigilant about neutral looks before, because it was usually obvious that only women are in women's spaces and anyone not looking "typical" (but not clearly male, either) would very likely be a woman, too.

I think that now rather more women who don't look "feminine" are under closer observation by other women because they have more reason to doubt than they used to have before. That means the TRA-arguments have divided women unnecessarily, too, because everyone is more concerned about the negatives than ever.

(Obviously I have no clear definition of "mainstream", "feminine" etc, this is just a general layout of trying to see the structure of the arguments.)

Is there any other source than an article in "Hindustan Times" where IK said others considering IK "trans" would be shameful for IK's family?
I do try to follow the threads but I could have missed that.

https://x.com/icons_women/status/1823827361571463238

x.com

https://x.com/icons_women/status/1823827361571463238

PatatiPatatras · 18/08/2024 19:18

annejumps · 18/08/2024 18:50

Don't forget it's radical feminist who think checks notes all women should give birth because it's radical feminists who think that's what being a woman is

Did you hurt yourself in that stretch? Or are you too high strung to stretch?

So saying female bodies gestate implies all females, even faulty ones, must gestate does it?

AncientAndModern1 · 18/08/2024 19:19

annejumps · 18/08/2024 18:50

Don't forget it's radical feminist who think checks notes all women should give birth because it's radical feminists who think that's what being a woman is

Wtf are you talking about

ChaChaChooey · 18/08/2024 19:23

AncientAndModern1 · 18/08/2024 19:19

Wtf are you talking about

Anne is presenting the TRA position to be mocked, that’s not something she believes!

ConstructionTime · 18/08/2024 19:31

@dangandblast Thanks!

RufustheFactualReindeer · 18/08/2024 19:39

ChaChaChooey · 18/08/2024 19:23

Anne is presenting the TRA position to be mocked, that’s not something she believes!

We so need a sarcasm emoji

ApocalipstickNow · 18/08/2024 19:51

How about using this one 💁‍♀️ (because I don’t know what it means) or just is this one to clarify a poster’s stance 🙅‍♀️

RufustheFactualReindeer · 18/08/2024 20:04

Oooo i like the x

ditalini · 18/08/2024 20:05

RufustheFactualReindeer · 18/08/2024 19:39

We so need a sarcasm emoji

Alas, this has been an issue never resolved for hundreds of years.

Maybe we should bring back the percontation point ⸮

thirdfiddle · 18/08/2024 20:07

And I don’t get the it’s an anti trans issue one bit.

Trans want men in women's sport because they believe they are women and have birth certificates that say they are women (because they've changed them).
Current issue is men in women's sport because they believe they are women and have birth certificates that say they are women (because they have a medical condition and were mistaken for female at birth).

It's not that different an issue really is it? Identity + papers vs physical reality and women's safety.

Possibly it just relates to the relative ability to muster a logical argument that the feminist&ally commentators have been perfectly clear that there's no question of trans here, whereas transactivist commentators are getting confused and accusing people of accusing the boxers of being trans.

This could be because I deliberately subscribe to follow articulate feminists on Twitter, whereas trans voices I get are a random selection of what algorithms throw up. If anyone has found any coherent speakers on the trans side I would actually be interested to follow. I like to see both sides of an argument. Not optimistic though, if there were any they'd have shown up to a debate by now.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 18/08/2024 20:09

ChaChaChooey · 18/08/2024 18:48

I kinda love the stupidity of accusing us of being short haired, hairy legged, dungaree-wearing terves who demand boxers perform femininity to prove female-ness.

Make it make sense!

short haired, hairy legged, dungaree-wearing terves

I feel so seen right now ❤

annejumps · 18/08/2024 20:25

Haha, sorry. Yes, for years now I've been seeing the "So, women have babies?! So you're saying all women have to have babies?!" idiocy.

PatatiPatatras · 18/08/2024 21:41

@annejumps, that's all you.

You don't know what sex gestates? That's all on you. You do and you don't know that some of this sex category just can't do it temporarily, permanently or by choice - that's on you.

You do and you think that saying the female sex gestates means there are no females who don't have children, that's on you.

It still doesn't change that the female sex is the sex that gestates. and it has no implication that all women must have babies. That's just you with your fingers in your ears.

Now is uni back on yet?

hihelenhi · 18/08/2024 22:00

PatatiPatatras · 18/08/2024 21:41

@annejumps, that's all you.

You don't know what sex gestates? That's all on you. You do and you don't know that some of this sex category just can't do it temporarily, permanently or by choice - that's on you.

You do and you think that saying the female sex gestates means there are no females who don't have children, that's on you.

It still doesn't change that the female sex is the sex that gestates. and it has no implication that all women must have babies. That's just you with your fingers in your ears.

Now is uni back on yet?

Whoosh. Try reading the previous few posts

Anne is not saying that at all. She was being sarcastic. Joking.

PatatiPatatras · 18/08/2024 22:30

It is possible I've had woosh moment as I can't remember which threads i have read fully. And they don't always start from where I've stopped.

If I have, apologies and carry on without me.

annejumps · 19/08/2024 00:13

PatatiPatatras · 18/08/2024 21:41

@annejumps, that's all you.

You don't know what sex gestates? That's all on you. You do and you don't know that some of this sex category just can't do it temporarily, permanently or by choice - that's on you.

You do and you think that saying the female sex gestates means there are no females who don't have children, that's on you.

It still doesn't change that the female sex is the sex that gestates. and it has no implication that all women must have babies. That's just you with your fingers in your ears.

Now is uni back on yet?

Errrr, you've missed the sarcasm and several subsequent posts pointing out the sarcasm.

annejumps · 19/08/2024 00:15

Oops, and then I didn't read some followup posts 😂

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