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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Imane Khelif

805 replies

LHayday · 14/08/2024 20:07

Just reading the thread on here for the first time. What I fail to understand is why so many contributors are so desperate for her to be a man. Someone who has lived their entire life as a woman. Beggars belief.

OP posts:
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28
WickedSerious · 15/08/2024 10:09

Chersfrozenface · 15/08/2024 09:59

Does one not have a multiligual expert in hurty words in one's entourage?

An entourage without a multilingual expert in hurty words isn't worthy of being called an entourage.

KohlaParasaurus · 15/08/2024 10:09

ChaChaChooey · 15/08/2024 10:00

Bit weird that someone would post on the Feminism board to tell women off for objecting to live televised male violence but I suppose it takes all sorts, eh?

An acquaintance of mine has a teenage son who, she say, engages in recreational trolling on Mumsnet. Judging by how amusing she seems to find it, I'm sure there's a lot of it about. Not, of course, that I'm saying this is the case on this particular thread, heaven forfend!

RedToothBrush · 15/08/2024 10:19

Datun · 15/08/2024 00:57

One wonders what language the harassment he received was in, given he can't read English

TBF I read a lot of foreign language twitter because the translate feature makes it possible for me to do so.

This might also be a workable fudge if the French courts decide to be difficult. Twitter could just disable translation into French.

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:23

RedToothBrush · 15/08/2024 09:21

'renowned'.

Renowned for what? Having a qualification in a certain area and being willing to take payment to go on record and declare someone is a woman.

When the criteria for 'being a woman' in this situation is laid out by IOC as having an F in your passport. Not being female.

This is a fairly typical example of propaganda to try and add legitimacy to something that's problematic by giving it some sort of professional backing.

We know that there are huge problems within the field of endocrinology with a large number willing to take money to play with hormones despite a lack of robust evidence to say it's a good idea. There are plenty of endocrinologists willing to say that someone who was born a man is a woman.

In this case we have someone on record saying despite their chromosomes and testosterone levels they are a woman, not not female. Language matters here. And they've been paid to do this.

In terms of them being a) a reliable impartial witness b) saying something of scientific value we have neither.

The first thing you learnt when studying history or media is to consider the bias of the source before what they say. Then you examine what they say and what their intentions is. Then you look for other sources of information to see if they match or say something different. Then you assess what is said in terms of its value and reliability. What you don't do is go "oh well they are an important person, so I will take what they say at face value and not apply any critical analysis to it". Because that's dumb.

We have a number of sources, including ones with bias towards to individual, who all say this is an XY individual with raised testosterone levels outside the female range.

And the problem with that in sporting terms is that anyone with raised testosterone levels outside the female range, who has XY chromosomes is likely to have gone through male puberty and have both an unfair advantage and pose a physical safety risk to females in a high risk contact sport like boxing.

Which is the entire argument about why we don't want males in female sport and why female sport was created in the first place.

Just because you declare someone a woman based on your paperwork definition doesn't mean that they are female or a woman based on actually being a women.

I do wonder about people who just blindly follow 'expert says' without actually thinking about what the expert says or why the expert is saying it and whether they really are a reliable expert or just someone on the payroll.

Corruption is a huge social issue. We have surprisingly little discussion of it compared to the scale of the problem.

There are major issues with the provenance of the IBA information. Why are you not scrutinising that and laying that bare?

Why the bias in your approach?

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:25

"There are major issues with the provenance of the IBA information. Why are you not scrutinising that and laying that bare? "

What exactly do you think are the major issues with the two separate accredited labs that undertook the tests?

TheEyesOfLucyJordon · 15/08/2024 12:29

Aussieland · 14/08/2024 20:44

You lot are horrible bullies and should be ashamed of yourselves. I am truly disgusted

Right back at ya. You simper over the feelings of a male, IOC sponsored cheat, while standing back and remaining silent while women (the female type!) get battered in unfair competition.

SHAME. ON. YOU!

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:29

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:25

"There are major issues with the provenance of the IBA information. Why are you not scrutinising that and laying that bare? "

What exactly do you think are the major issues with the two separate accredited labs that undertook the tests?

Surely you must have read the reports about the IBA, allegations about corruption, the arbitrary and targeted nature of testing the carried out, the fact that their own senior figures in an interview can't even agree whether the alleged tests looked at chromosomes or testosterone levels 🤷‍♂️

HootyMcBooby · 15/08/2024 12:33

Ok then, what about the................... WORDS OF THIS OWN PERSON'S COACH?
Who has said there is a "chromosome problem"?

Are you going to come up with something to discredit that too?

Or say that he meant something else entirely? When he said that Imane was upset because "she might not really be a girl"?

The rush to defend this situation is incomprehensible in the face of all the evidence.

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:35

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:29

Surely you must have read the reports about the IBA, allegations about corruption, the arbitrary and targeted nature of testing the carried out, the fact that their own senior figures in an interview can't even agree whether the alleged tests looked at chromosomes or testosterone levels 🤷‍♂️

The greek doctor confirmed they were chromosome tests and numerous people have seen the test results but I wasn't asking what you thought about the IBA. I asked what the issues were with the accredited labs that did the testing

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:35

HootyMcBooby · 15/08/2024 12:33

Ok then, what about the................... WORDS OF THIS OWN PERSON'S COACH?
Who has said there is a "chromosome problem"?

Are you going to come up with something to discredit that too?

Or say that he meant something else entirely? When he said that Imane was upset because "she might not really be a girl"?

The rush to defend this situation is incomprehensible in the face of all the evidence.

We've gone over this; a karyotype difference does not inherently mean an individual has XY chromosomes, or is male.

RedToothBrush · 15/08/2024 12:37

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:23

There are major issues with the provenance of the IBA information. Why are you not scrutinising that and laying that bare?

Why the bias in your approach?

Yes there are. However there is a certain amount of overlap and agreement with what the IBA AND Khelif's coaches are BOTH saying.

And thats what you look for when assessing information, its reliability and bias.

I really don't have to lay anything bare.

You'd understand that if you understood the concept of eliminating bias and assessing evidence at a basic level.

Try harder. Think critically.

viques · 15/08/2024 12:40

HootyMcBooby · 15/08/2024 00:57

AND the fact that NEITHER boxer disputed the disqualification or went to an appeal.
Why?

Because on appeal all the results, and the tests used, are made public by the independent arbitration panel . This is what scuppered Semanya. The tests identified his DSD and proved categorically that he is a man, not a genetic woman with unusually high levels of testosterone which had always been the claim.

It is far easier to fudge the issue by repeatedly saying that the original tests were unclear, were inadequate, were biased, were performed by a discredited organisation etc etc when you know that the organisation who performed the tests has no legal comeback to those accusations. Going forward with an appeal - which let’s face it is what most people would have insisted on if they knew that they had been wrongly sexed - would expose the lies and cheating.

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:41

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:35

The greek doctor confirmed they were chromosome tests and numerous people have seen the test results but I wasn't asking what you thought about the IBA. I asked what the issues were with the accredited labs that did the testing

Well for eg.

You could have an accredited accountancy firm looking over the books for their client. If their client is dodgy and providing them with dodgy information unknown to them, the fact they are accredited, well-thought of etc is unfortunately irrelevant. They could do the best job in the world but their accuracy is stymied by their client.

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:47

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:41

Well for eg.

You could have an accredited accountancy firm looking over the books for their client. If their client is dodgy and providing them with dodgy information unknown to them, the fact they are accredited, well-thought of etc is unfortunately irrelevant. They could do the best job in the world but their accuracy is stymied by their client.

That accredited accountant wouldn't actually give any opinion on their clients accounts though unless they were conducting an audit. If it was an audit then they would not be doing their job if they weren't checking that information wasn't dodgy.
Are you implying that the IBA sent fake or contaminated samples to both labs

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:53

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:47

That accredited accountant wouldn't actually give any opinion on their clients accounts though unless they were conducting an audit. If it was an audit then they would not be doing their job if they weren't checking that information wasn't dodgy.
Are you implying that the IBA sent fake or contaminated samples to both labs

We simply don't know what exactly happened. We don't have access to the full protocols.

It seems that the IBA only made provision for the sort of arbitrary and targeted tests they carried out in protocols that were dated after the time they initially did the tests. So no wonder their protocol rigour and the validity of findings is being challenged.

Their own leading figures can't even their stories straight in interviews about whether chromosomes or testosterone were tested.

There's a fair history of shady workings, it's not surprising that people are questioning.

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:55

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:53

We simply don't know what exactly happened. We don't have access to the full protocols.

It seems that the IBA only made provision for the sort of arbitrary and targeted tests they carried out in protocols that were dated after the time they initially did the tests. So no wonder their protocol rigour and the validity of findings is being challenged.

Their own leading figures can't even their stories straight in interviews about whether chromosomes or testosterone were tested.

There's a fair history of shady workings, it's not surprising that people are questioning.

So you can't name a single issue with the two accredited labs

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 13:00

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:55

So you can't name a single issue with the two accredited labs

If a lab is provided with suspect material their best efforts will fall short. There is enough suspicion over the workings of the IBA to give considerable pause for thought.

Can you name a single issue with the endocrinologist?

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 13:05

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:55

So you can't name a single issue with the two accredited labs

O yes actually, I have found an issue:

"The IBA said the tests were sent to two different laboratories that are accredited by the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada).

However, Wada has told BBC Sport it does not oversee gender tests and its work only relates to anti-doping matters."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cnk4427vvd2o

A picture of Imane Khelif at Paris 2024

Boxer gender eligibility: Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting row explained

As a row over eligibility continues to overshadow boxing at the Olympics, we take a detailed look at the background to the dispute.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cnk4427vvd2o

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 13:05

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 13:00

If a lab is provided with suspect material their best efforts will fall short. There is enough suspicion over the workings of the IBA to give considerable pause for thought.

Can you name a single issue with the endocrinologist?

Do you mean the unnamed endocrinologist hired by Khelif's team?

  1. Not independent
  2. Qualifications unknown
  3. Experience of DSDs unknown
  4. Whether the use of woman by the endocrinologist refers to gender or sex
  5. Report and results not seen by any independent body

Is that enough?

NecessaryScene · 15/08/2024 13:08

If a lab is provided with suspect material their best efforts will fall short.

So you think the cunning plan was to send tampered-with or fake samples for sex testing, to disqualify competitors on the grounds of sex?

A test which can clearly be repeated at any time to both correct the earlier result, and both prove that tampering must have taken place? Thus discrediting the IBA further?

You do know sex is immutable, right? Anyone wanting to arrange a fake result would want to do it in something mutable that can't be easily repeated and hence disproven, like checking drugs in a person's system.

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 13:10

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 13:05

O yes actually, I have found an issue:

"The IBA said the tests were sent to two different laboratories that are accredited by the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada).

However, Wada has told BBC Sport it does not oversee gender tests and its work only relates to anti-doping matters."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cnk4427vvd2o

But those labs are accredited for doping tests by wada. Since the sporting bodies aren't sex testing anymore it would make sense that no labs would be specifically accredited for sex testing.
Why would wada accredited labs risk losing that accreditation and losing an income stream for dope testing by faking sex tests

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 13:13

Using your accountancy example it would be akin to saying that you can't trust an accredited accountant to certify a document as a true copy because they are accredited only as accountants and not as document checkers

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 13:13

NecessaryScene · 15/08/2024 13:08

If a lab is provided with suspect material their best efforts will fall short.

So you think the cunning plan was to send tampered-with or fake samples for sex testing, to disqualify competitors on the grounds of sex?

A test which can clearly be repeated at any time to both correct the earlier result, and both prove that tampering must have taken place? Thus discrediting the IBA further?

You do know sex is immutable, right? Anyone wanting to arrange a fake result would want to do it in something mutable that can't be easily repeated and hence disproven, like checking drugs in a person's system.

But you know previous tests were carried out by the IBA on these athletes right? And they did not give rise to results that disqualified them from competing.

Where's the replicability and what's happening there then?

NecessaryScene · 15/08/2024 13:15

But you know previous tests were carried out by the IBA on these athletes right? And they did not give rise to results that disqualified them from competing.

I believe you just made that up. Citation please.

Or is this cunning misleading phrasing? You said "tests" - so you don't mean "sex tests", so they would have been drug tests, say?

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 13:16

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 13:13

But you know previous tests were carried out by the IBA on these athletes right? And they did not give rise to results that disqualified them from competing.

Where's the replicability and what's happening there then?

They didn't get the results from the first test until after the tournament ended and then had to wait until the boxers were registered for another tournament before they could retest

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