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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jess Phillips appointed a minister to focus on tackling violence against women and girls and domestic violence.

317 replies

IwantToRetire · 09/07/2024 23:48

Jess Phillips has been appointed to the Labour government as a minister, focusing on tackling violence against women and girls and domestic violence.

The Labour MP has been a vocal campaigner on the subject, and has become known for reading out a list of all the women killed by men in the UK every year on International Women's Day in parliament.

Ms Phillips had the role of shadow domestic violence and safeguarding minister from 2020 to 2023 under Sir Keir Starmer but resigned over the party's stance on the Middle East conflict in November.

She was one of 56 Labour MPs - including eight frontbenchers - to vote in favour of an SNP motion calling for an immediate ceasefire in the Middle East.

This defied the Labour whip, and so Ms Phillips had to step aside.

More ... https://news.sky.com/story/jess-phillips-made-minister-following-frontbench-resignation-over-middle-east-13175726

Jess Phillips made minister following frontbench resignation over Middle East

The Birmingham Yardley MP has been appointed to the Home Office team, working under Home Secretary Yvette Cooper. She previously held a shadow role for domestic violence and safeguarding but stood down last year.

https://news.sky.com/story/jess-phillips-made-minister-following-frontbench-resignation-over-middle-east-13175726

OP posts:
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13
Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/07/2024 11:09

Sorry meant to quote @AlisonDonut

BundleBonce · 10/07/2024 11:23

These are not sacrifices any man has ever had to make in order to live as and be treated like a man.

I don't understand what this bit means.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/07/2024 11:46

BundleBonce · 10/07/2024 11:23

These are not sacrifices any man has ever had to make in order to live as and be treated like a man.

I don't understand what this bit means.

Some trans men manage to alter their bodies enough to "pass" as men. I imagine that in everyday life this means that they gain a certain amount of male privilege in terms of how they are treated, if people don't realise that they are female.

But in order to get to that point, they have to take hormones, undergo surgeries, deal with serious side effects for their physical health, and they will never have a properly functioning penis (which I think most men would say was central to their sense of self as a man) or have children of their own. Their ability to find a partner of either sex will most likely be severely restricted.

Men don't have to do any of these things to enjoy male privilege. They just put their clothes on, leave the house and go about their daily lives. They get to have a normal sex life and father children if they want to.

dougalfromthemagicroundabout · 10/07/2024 11:47

AlisonDonut · 10/07/2024 10:17

An annulment is different from a divorce. It is important in so many ways.

Forcing a woman to stay married to a man who no longer exists, and having to divorce him (when he no longer exists) rather than applying for an annulment before he erases himself which allows her to get out is so, so cruel.

I mean, fucking hell, the mind games these women are having to deal is bad enough without this shit situation on top.

Removing the annulment option is state sanctioned coercive control. I thought that was illegal, guess not.

Expect many more ways in which Labour will make life easier for abusive men.

Floisme · 10/07/2024 11:49

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/07/2024 11:08

I'm interested in how this will play out to be honest, what with no prison space and men getting bailed left right and centre even when caught abducting young girls.

Crack on Jess and good luck.

This is an excellent point about the substance this role will have in real terms. But that's not Jess's fault. Whatever I think about her (and it's mixed, and although I admire her in some ways I don't trust her), she is quite a good choice for the role given the pool available.

Whatever I think about her (and it's mixed, and although I admire her in some ways I don't trust her), she is quite a good choice for the role given the pool available.

From where I'm sitting, that looks like a pretty fair summary. I'm pleased about the creation of the post, feel personally wary of Jess Phillips but recognise her strengths and I hope she'll go on to show us all just how outspoken she's prepared to be.

BundleBonce · 10/07/2024 11:52

Thanks.

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 10/07/2024 11:53

Some trans men manage to alter their bodies enough to "pass" as men.

Hmmm. Height and hands though. Perhaps on Zoom but not IRL. And very often someone's face sets off a query in your mind.

BezMills · 10/07/2024 11:59

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/07/2024 11:04

It's not "hijacking feminism" to insist on clarity about what a woman is.

Feminism is a women's liberation movement. Feminism recognises that women have been, and still are, oppressed and discriminated against due to our biological sex. Feminism is the belief that women should have equal rights and opportunities to men, and where this is not currently the case or is difficult to achieve due to the biological differences between us, women should have extra help and protection. Equality, but also equity.

This is precisely why we have our own single sex spaces and sporting categories: because society understands (or understood) that in order to participate in society on a level playing field with men, there are some instances where we must have separate accommodation.

Ignoring or minimising the very real biological differences between men and women, and choosing to define men and women according to "gender" instead, is the antithesis of feminism.

It's insulting, because it implies that sex based oppression is something that can be identified in or out of - that it is, in some sense, chosen.

It's regressive, because it defines women by reference to the very same sexist stereotypes that feminism was supposed to liberate women from.

And it's dangerous, because it undermines our ability to keep ourselves safe, by allowing any man who says he is a woman to come into our toilets, changing rooms, prisons and rape crisis groups.

How the hell is any of this compatible with feminism?

It's not.

Convincing liberal feminists that trans women - male people who have chosen to live their lives as women - are more oppressed than actual women, is one of the most audacious tricks the patriarchy has ever pulled.

We live a society where women are sexually harassed, raped, objectified, undermined, talked over, passed over for promotions, written off professionally because of our decision to have children or judged for our inability to have them or choice not to have them. The people who can take their makeup off, cut their hair short, put on a suit and tie and go back to being treated as men, with male privilege, are not more oppressed than the people who cannot do these things.

It's not difficult to see why so many young girls and women are looking at the way our society treats women and deciding they'd rather be a man. Some of them may alter their bodies to the extent that they can actually "pass" as men on a superficial level. But in order to do so they have to render themselves infertile, undergo invasive surgeries, take drugs which will have a lasting impact on their health, forego the possibility of ever really having a normal sex life or having children of their own. These are not sacrifices any man has ever had to make in order to live as and be treated like a man.

If all it takes for you to enjoy male privilege is to wear men's clothes, you are certainly NOT the most oppressed and vulnerable!

Feminism is for and about female people. If you make it about male people, and even worse, if you make it so that the small group of male people you have chosen to include take priority over the female people your movement is actually for, it no longer serves any useful purpose.

Edited

Oh my goodness that's a great post.

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2024 12:12

Fab. We now have an entire committee to ponder what a woman is, define what a woman is and legislate what a woman is and to also point the finger at everyone else when it doesn't quite go down well with the public.

I'm sure there's a joke about a light bulb in this.

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2024 12:18

It's not "hijacking feminism" to insist on clarity about what a woman is.

How do you promote and protect women's rights when you don't have a legal definition of who is a woman?

Seriously.

This isn't hijacking feminism.

This is saying, is the law fit for purpose and who does it actually protect, where may it fail and who may it leaves vulnerable.

That's a very fair question.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 10/07/2024 12:21

I’m hopeful

JP’s primary interest seems to me to be JP, but it’s only women politicians we expect to behave differently to that

she has done good things for women and not been afraid to be outspoken on matters she felt were ‘safe’

I’m pleased the role has been created and think she’s a good choice from the candidates available

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2024 12:24

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2024 12:18

It's not "hijacking feminism" to insist on clarity about what a woman is.

How do you promote and protect women's rights when you don't have a legal definition of who is a woman?

Seriously.

This isn't hijacking feminism.

This is saying, is the law fit for purpose and who does it actually protect, where may it fail and who may it leaves vulnerable.

That's a very fair question.

Surely this is the very definition of holding power to account and ensuring it works for the public?

But no. "Hijacking feminism".

Sometimes I despair at the amount of 'woman scolding' there's on here.

Zita60 · 10/07/2024 12:30

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/07/2024 11:04

It's not "hijacking feminism" to insist on clarity about what a woman is.

Feminism is a women's liberation movement. Feminism recognises that women have been, and still are, oppressed and discriminated against due to our biological sex. Feminism is the belief that women should have equal rights and opportunities to men, and where this is not currently the case or is difficult to achieve due to the biological differences between us, women should have extra help and protection. Equality, but also equity.

This is precisely why we have our own single sex spaces and sporting categories: because society understands (or understood) that in order to participate in society on a level playing field with men, there are some instances where we must have separate accommodation.

Ignoring or minimising the very real biological differences between men and women, and choosing to define men and women according to "gender" instead, is the antithesis of feminism.

It's insulting, because it implies that sex based oppression is something that can be identified in or out of - that it is, in some sense, chosen.

It's regressive, because it defines women by reference to the very same sexist stereotypes that feminism was supposed to liberate women from.

And it's dangerous, because it undermines our ability to keep ourselves safe, by allowing any man who says he is a woman to come into our toilets, changing rooms, prisons and rape crisis groups.

How the hell is any of this compatible with feminism?

It's not.

Convincing liberal feminists that trans women - male people who have chosen to live their lives as women - are more oppressed than actual women, is one of the most audacious tricks the patriarchy has ever pulled.

We live a society where women are sexually harassed, raped, objectified, undermined, talked over, passed over for promotions, written off professionally because of our decision to have children or judged for our inability to have them or choice not to have them. The people who can take their makeup off, cut their hair short, put on a suit and tie and go back to being treated as men, with male privilege, are not more oppressed than the people who cannot do these things.

It's not difficult to see why so many young girls and women are looking at the way our society treats women and deciding they'd rather be a man. Some of them may alter their bodies to the extent that they can actually "pass" as men on a superficial level. But in order to do so they have to render themselves infertile, undergo invasive surgeries, take drugs which will have a lasting impact on their health, forego the possibility of ever really having a normal sex life or having children of their own. These are not sacrifices any man has ever had to make in order to live as and be treated like a man.

If all it takes for you to enjoy male privilege is to wear men's clothes, you are certainly NOT the most oppressed and vulnerable!

Feminism is for and about female people. If you make it about male people, and even worse, if you make it so that the small group of male people you have chosen to include take priority over the female people your movement is actually for, it no longer serves any useful purpose.

Edited

Yup. All of this! 👏

CassieMaddox · 10/07/2024 13:40

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2024 12:18

It's not "hijacking feminism" to insist on clarity about what a woman is.

How do you promote and protect women's rights when you don't have a legal definition of who is a woman?

Seriously.

This isn't hijacking feminism.

This is saying, is the law fit for purpose and who does it actually protect, where may it fail and who may it leaves vulnerable.

That's a very fair question.

Violence against women and girls is overwhelmingly carried out by men.

You don't need to "define a woman" to reduce VAWG. You need to deal with male violence. Therefore in this instance a lot can be done and do a great deal of good for women and girls regardless of gender politics and definitions.

Bring it on Jess.

CassieMaddox · 10/07/2024 13:41

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2024 12:24

Surely this is the very definition of holding power to account and ensuring it works for the public?

But no. "Hijacking feminism".

Sometimes I despair at the amount of 'woman scolding' there's on here.

Scolding is a misogynist term coopted on here to tell off people not following the board line. It's cliquey and off putting to other posters.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/07/2024 14:02

CassieMaddox · 10/07/2024 13:41

Scolding is a misogynist term coopted on here to tell off people not following the board line. It's cliquey and off putting to other posters.

"To scold" is a verb meaning to reprimand or tell someone off for their behaviour.

This is exactly what the "pro trans" posters are doing when they come on here to tell women that we shouldn't use clear language to refer to someone's biological sex or assert our rights to single sex spaces and sports because it makes some men very sad.

It is a fairly archaic term, not much used in modern English, but which gender critical feminists on this site like because it invokes imagery of the "scold's bridle", a device used in the middle ages to punish women who just wouldn't fucking shut up.

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 10/07/2024 14:05

Violence against women and girls is overwhelmingly carried out by men.

You don't need to "define a woman" to reduce VAWG. You need to deal with male violence.

🤡🌎

BabaYagasHouse · 10/07/2024 14:07

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/07/2024 11:04

It's not "hijacking feminism" to insist on clarity about what a woman is.

Feminism is a women's liberation movement. Feminism recognises that women have been, and still are, oppressed and discriminated against due to our biological sex. Feminism is the belief that women should have equal rights and opportunities to men, and where this is not currently the case or is difficult to achieve due to the biological differences between us, women should have extra help and protection. Equality, but also equity.

This is precisely why we have our own single sex spaces and sporting categories: because society understands (or understood) that in order to participate in society on a level playing field with men, there are some instances where we must have separate accommodation.

Ignoring or minimising the very real biological differences between men and women, and choosing to define men and women according to "gender" instead, is the antithesis of feminism.

It's insulting, because it implies that sex based oppression is something that can be identified in or out of - that it is, in some sense, chosen.

It's regressive, because it defines women by reference to the very same sexist stereotypes that feminism was supposed to liberate women from.

And it's dangerous, because it undermines our ability to keep ourselves safe, by allowing any man who says he is a woman to come into our toilets, changing rooms, prisons and rape crisis groups.

How the hell is any of this compatible with feminism?

It's not.

Convincing liberal feminists that trans women - male people who have chosen to live their lives as women - are more oppressed than actual women, is one of the most audacious tricks the patriarchy has ever pulled.

We live a society where women are sexually harassed, raped, objectified, undermined, talked over, passed over for promotions, written off professionally because of our decision to have children or judged for our inability to have them or choice not to have them. The people who can take their makeup off, cut their hair short, put on a suit and tie and go back to being treated as men, with male privilege, are not more oppressed than the people who cannot do these things.

It's not difficult to see why so many young girls and women are looking at the way our society treats women and deciding they'd rather be a man. Some of them may alter their bodies to the extent that they can actually "pass" as men on a superficial level. But in order to do so they have to render themselves infertile, undergo invasive surgeries, take drugs which will have a lasting impact on their health, forego the possibility of ever really having a normal sex life or having children of their own. These are not sacrifices any man has ever had to make in order to live as and be treated like a man.

If all it takes for you to enjoy male privilege is to wear men's clothes, you are certainly NOT the most oppressed and vulnerable!

Feminism is for and about female people. If you make it about male people, and even worse, if you make it so that the small group of male people you have chosen to include take priority over the female people your movement is actually for, it no longer serves any useful purpose.

Edited

Thank you👏

BezMills · 10/07/2024 14:12

I think it is fair to say that defining woman is not immediately necessary, if you want to focus on the actions of men, specifically VAWG. We would, however, be wise to define what a man is...

ThreeWordHarpy · 10/07/2024 14:19

I’m pleased that Jess has got this role on several levels - is obviously a topic she feels strongly about, and KS is following through on a manifesto pledge about VAWG (however cynical I was about the proposal about achieve this through reducing court backlogs). Yes she’s says stuff in the past that may cause concern but let’s face it, the only perfect woman for the role is JKR and she already has a job.

Jess has always struck me as passionate and authentic for want of a better term. I can only hope being the Minister and being responsible for delivering workable legislation will enable her to reconsider some of her previously stated beliefs about “other types of women” and the spousal exit clause. It’s very different from being in Opposition when your job is to fling shit at hold the government to account.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 10/07/2024 14:19

CassieMaddox · 10/07/2024 13:40

Violence against women and girls is overwhelmingly carried out by men.

You don't need to "define a woman" to reduce VAWG. You need to deal with male violence. Therefore in this instance a lot can be done and do a great deal of good for women and girls regardless of gender politics and definitions.

Bring it on Jess.

So how do we define these “men” then if we don’t need to define women?

Runningupthecurtains · 10/07/2024 14:34

Theeyeballsinthesky · 10/07/2024 14:19

So how do we define these “men” then if we don’t need to define women?

We could wave a magic wand and make "men" none violent. Then we will see a massive rise the percentage of violence committed by "women" and certain people can say "I told you so" and "right side of history" and feel all warm and smug about being right while men continue to commit most violent crime. But hey they'll be wearing lipstick while they do so Nige and Barry won't feel got at by a bunch of nasty old hags.

MaidOfAle · 10/07/2024 15:45

CassieMaddox · 10/07/2024 13:40

Violence against women and girls is overwhelmingly carried out by men.

You don't need to "define a woman" to reduce VAWG. You need to deal with male violence. Therefore in this instance a lot can be done and do a great deal of good for women and girls regardless of gender politics and definitions.

Bring it on Jess.

In order to define "male violence", you must first be able to define a man. You must be able to say that a perpetrator is male. Otherwise you are left saying that Isla Bryson and Karen White are women who have perpetrated "female violence" of a sexual nature with their female penises.

Female sexual and serious violent offending is so rare that TW being logged as women is already distorting the recorded offending rates.

ThreeWordHarpy · 10/07/2024 16:03

Very sadly, the first day in role Jess will note the murder of a woman by an ex partner, along with her sister and mother. RIP Carol Hunt and daughters.

CassieMaddox · 10/07/2024 16:09

MaidOfAle · 10/07/2024 15:45

In order to define "male violence", you must first be able to define a man. You must be able to say that a perpetrator is male. Otherwise you are left saying that Isla Bryson and Karen White are women who have perpetrated "female violence" of a sexual nature with their female penises.

Female sexual and serious violent offending is so rare that TW being logged as women is already distorting the recorded offending rates.

🙄
Of course you don't. But of course, let's focus on pedantry rather than action.