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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jess Phillips appointed a minister to focus on tackling violence against women and girls and domestic violence.

317 replies

IwantToRetire · 09/07/2024 23:48

Jess Phillips has been appointed to the Labour government as a minister, focusing on tackling violence against women and girls and domestic violence.

The Labour MP has been a vocal campaigner on the subject, and has become known for reading out a list of all the women killed by men in the UK every year on International Women's Day in parliament.

Ms Phillips had the role of shadow domestic violence and safeguarding minister from 2020 to 2023 under Sir Keir Starmer but resigned over the party's stance on the Middle East conflict in November.

She was one of 56 Labour MPs - including eight frontbenchers - to vote in favour of an SNP motion calling for an immediate ceasefire in the Middle East.

This defied the Labour whip, and so Ms Phillips had to step aside.

More ... https://news.sky.com/story/jess-phillips-made-minister-following-frontbench-resignation-over-middle-east-13175726

Jess Phillips made minister following frontbench resignation over Middle East

The Birmingham Yardley MP has been appointed to the Home Office team, working under Home Secretary Yvette Cooper. She previously held a shadow role for domestic violence and safeguarding but stood down last year.

https://news.sky.com/story/jess-phillips-made-minister-following-frontbench-resignation-over-middle-east-13175726

OP posts:
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13
MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 10/07/2024 09:39

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 10/07/2024 09:37

I think Ruth Davidson is in the Lords as well, isn't she? Or maybe I've got that wrong....

Yes, I've just checked. Ruth Davidson is in the Lords so I presume that this shouldn't be a barrier.

gummigwer · 10/07/2024 09:45

Do they think transistion shouldn't be grounds for divorce either?
They do. But this - "spousal veto" - is a cover for removing annulment. This is very important for religious women as they cannot get divorced and remarried. It's also important to anyone who is married because if you allow this, then you start to interfere with marriage as a contract. Which it is. It's hard to overstate the importance of this.

Question - as marriage is a contract. Will removing spousal veto only affect new contracts (marriages) but not old ones? Surely it's a breach of contract if it gets changed without the married parties agreeing

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 10/07/2024 09:46

gummigwer · 10/07/2024 09:45

Do they think transistion shouldn't be grounds for divorce either?
They do. But this - "spousal veto" - is a cover for removing annulment. This is very important for religious women as they cannot get divorced and remarried. It's also important to anyone who is married because if you allow this, then you start to interfere with marriage as a contract. Which it is. It's hard to overstate the importance of this.

Question - as marriage is a contract. Will removing spousal veto only affect new contracts (marriages) but not old ones? Surely it's a breach of contract if it gets changed without the married parties agreeing

It's all legal marriages.

Floisme · 10/07/2024 09:48

The main reason I feel lukewarm towards Jess Phillips is her role on the House of Commons Women and Equalities Committee that recommended gender self-ID in 2016 and that, if I recall correctly. did so without asking for submissions from women's groups. Maybe it's time I moved on from that but here I am. It would help if she were to acknowledge what she did but I've never seen her do so.

That said, I'm very pleased to see this post created and - assuming that they're never in a million years going to recognise Rosie Duffield's expertise - Jess Phillips is, I think, a better fit for the role than many.

BezMills · 10/07/2024 09:48

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 10/07/2024 09:39

Yes, I've just checked. Ruth Davidson is in the Lords so I presume that this shouldn't be a barrier.

Good, I've always liked Ruth Davidson. She's a dreadful Tory from Fife just like my gran

Phoebefail · 10/07/2024 09:53

Why don't we wait and see how JP is going to work?
We know the potential problems so we can be ready to support her or argue as it becomes necessary.
Going round the arguments of the past and getting in a froth this early is not helping us formulate our responses.

MaidOfAle · 10/07/2024 09:54

Hiphopopotamonster · 10/07/2024 01:22

I mean. Literally. Not all men are like that. As a group they’re fucking awful but I have a husband and a son and they’re not. My son is 1. I refuse to talk shit about an actual baby and reduce him to just his genitals. I also refuse to reduce myself to just my genitals.

as a group, boomers have fucked us millennials over with your free uni and cheap housing. But I’m sure you’ll all be on to tell me how it wasn’t like that for you in your cheap rented flat and no assets. Not all boomers right?

I am in my forties and am still paying back my student loan.

Take your ageist assumptions elsewhere.

Sausagenbacon · 10/07/2024 09:55

Going round the arguments of the past and getting in a froth this early is not helping us formulate our responses.
Sooner or later someone will come onto these threads and say this. So Dismissive. Why shouldn't we discuss this? And, AFAIK, the discussion has been informative and dispassionate.

MaidOfAle · 10/07/2024 09:57

Humtum · 10/07/2024 01:33

A meme? Just the way you said "time for this again"... I thought it would be something, substantial + credible.

That's like me saying: "Time for this" (anticipating credible source to establish not only my opinion but fact)......

H

(Who doesn't love an image of a hoglet).

Edited

The "this" referred to the explanatory nature of the meme.

IdleAnimations · 10/07/2024 09:59

Hiphopopotamonster · 10/07/2024 00:55

Yep. You’re right. So what about infertile women. What about women who have had a hysterectomy. Are they still women? Do they still experience discrimination based on still looking like they could get pregnant. What about trans women who look like they could also get pregnant? Trans women who can be raped. What about very masculine presenting women? Are they still women? Even if they don’t look like women?

Its nuanced. The whole thing. But you all reduce it down to how female presenting you are.

Not all women can get pregnant but only women can.

As for sexist tropes, most trans identified males use the most outdated, insulting and sexist stereotypes to define themselves as women which is also often rooted in some form of kink. Dress goes swish swish does not make you a woman, being female does no matter how upset that makes these men.

Id rather follow the feminism of old which is female based than be on my knees removing women’s rights because men have rejected their fellow gender non conforming men. It’s a male problem that needs to be tackled by males.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 10/07/2024 10:01

BezMills · 10/07/2024 09:48

Good, I've always liked Ruth Davidson. She's a dreadful Tory from Fife just like my gran

Ruth Davidson is one of the very few Tories that I really have time for!

MaidOfAle · 10/07/2024 10:10

Chartreux · 10/07/2024 08:25

Why is that your first takeaway from this, rather than focussing on addressing male violence so that there is no need for support services anyway?

Ending male violence is a long project. Demanding female-only spaces is known as a "transitional demand" to make immediate positive change whilst the long project comes to fruition.

AlisonDonut · 10/07/2024 10:17

An annulment is different from a divorce. It is important in so many ways.

Forcing a woman to stay married to a man who no longer exists, and having to divorce him (when he no longer exists) rather than applying for an annulment before he erases himself which allows her to get out is so, so cruel.

I mean, fucking hell, the mind games these women are having to deal is bad enough without this shit situation on top.

misscockerspaniel · 10/07/2024 10:25

@Hiphopopotamonster "Its nuanced. The whole thing. But you all reduce it down to how female presenting you are"

Utter codswallop (or should that be bollocks). It is a matter of chromosomes. If it is fashion tips you are after, the style and beauty section is that way. This is FWR.

BezMills · 10/07/2024 10:29

misscockerspaniel · 10/07/2024 10:25

@Hiphopopotamonster "Its nuanced. The whole thing. But you all reduce it down to how female presenting you are"

Utter codswallop (or should that be bollocks). It is a matter of chromosomes. If it is fashion tips you are after, the style and beauty section is that way. This is FWR.

It's got to be up there in the top tens for both the dumbest and most sexist thing I've heard in my life. Womanhood reduced to a performance, help ma boab.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/07/2024 10:29

Hiphopopotamonster · 10/07/2024 00:29

The phrase is just so utterly cliche at this point. According to your description, Putin ‘knows what a woman is’. Hitler ‘knew what a woman was’. The fucking Taliban ‘know what a woman is’. Have you not noticed that those who subscribe to your narrow definition are also the ones most likely to rape and degrade women, keep them barefoot and pregnant and earning less? I’ll take feminism that recognises trans women and also looks closely at domestic violence, childcare prices and parental leave.

Ok, I'll bite.

What does "recognising trans women" as women actually involve, and how does it benefit women?

BezMills · 10/07/2024 10:31

I don't see why male people with cross-sex gender identities come into it. Female people with any kind of gender identity, for sure. Male people, not at all, not one bit.

BackToLurk · 10/07/2024 10:33

Hiphopopotamonster · 10/07/2024 00:38

It’s not ironic at all. Check who’s in your camp. Those who hold to a very narrow view of what a woman is, tend to also be those who subscribe to a very narrow definition of what a woman can do.

When 'your camp' includes Eric Joyce, Neil Gaiman & David Challenor, it's probably best not to bang on about 'camps'.

Mayhemmumma · 10/07/2024 10:41

Well I think it offers hope. She understands, has experience and knowledge. It's a big job and I hope we see change.

CassieMaddox · 10/07/2024 10:50

Iwishihadariver · 10/07/2024 06:17

This is very promising. Jess Phillips is a very forceful communicator and will make sure her brief is front and centre across Government activity.

It is inevitable at some point in her work, that clarification will be needed on the terms 'women and girls' and the type and nature of services needed to support them to avoid/resist/recover from and survive violence from males.

We will be ready to help Jess say the right words.

😂
Seriously? I'm pretty sure JP knows how to say the right words all on her own!

CassieMaddox · 10/07/2024 10:55

Sausagenbacon · 10/07/2024 08:33

So, now we have Annaliese Dodds as women and Equalities and Development . Bridget Phillipson as Women and Equalities and Education. And Jess Phillips as VAWG.
Why doesn't VAWG come within the remit of W&e?
Why is W&E spread between to ministers, who already have posts?
Sounds like a job creation scheme for Civil Servants.

Because it was one of their key election pledges so needs a single person to own it and keep it on track..and because it's a way to keep it separate from the GRA and "womens sex based rights" treacle
I think the more people looking at women's issues the better and am absolutely thrilled about this.

CassieMaddox · 10/07/2024 10:58

HermioneWeasley · 10/07/2024 09:10

I hope she achieves something, but I have my doubts.

she stood by and watched Rosie Duffield receive appalling abuse.
she supports removing the misnamed “spousal veto”
she tried to appease aggressive men from wildly misogynistic (and anti semitic) cultures and nearly lost her seat anyway.
she added Brianna Ghey’s name to the “counting dead women” list

has she ever spoken out about grooming gangs?

I believe she has done some good work with refuges in her area, but seems to only get involved when there is zero political risk in doing so.

And I believe this is what hiphop is referring to.
Womens achievements are never enough for MN unless they reach the purity bar. It makes me angry too.

I'd rather have trans-inclusive feminists and feminists who are "quietly GC" in government than no feminists at all.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/07/2024 11:04

Hiphopopotamonster · 10/07/2024 01:42

😂 yeah I’m angry that your ridiculous narrative has taken over mumsnet and that no subject can be talked about without first saying ‘well X doesn’t know what a woman is’.

I’m angry that you’re hijacking feminism and women’s rights by punching down to another more marginalised community.

I’m angry that you’re using exactly the same rhetoric that was used against gay rights 50 years ago.

And I’m definitely angry that you all seem to be too ignorant and in trenched to recognise all of this.

Hey - that Stalin. Mostly bad ey? But at least he knew what a woman was.

It's not "hijacking feminism" to insist on clarity about what a woman is.

Feminism is a women's liberation movement. Feminism recognises that women have been, and still are, oppressed and discriminated against due to our biological sex. Feminism is the belief that women should have equal rights and opportunities to men, and where this is not currently the case or is difficult to achieve due to the biological differences between us, women should have extra help and protection. Equality, but also equity.

This is precisely why we have our own single sex spaces and sporting categories: because society understands (or understood) that in order to participate in society on a level playing field with men, there are some instances where we must have separate accommodation.

Ignoring or minimising the very real biological differences between men and women, and choosing to define men and women according to "gender" instead, is the antithesis of feminism.

It's insulting, because it implies that sex based oppression is something that can be identified in or out of - that it is, in some sense, chosen.

It's regressive, because it defines women by reference to the very same sexist stereotypes that feminism was supposed to liberate women from.

And it's dangerous, because it undermines our ability to keep ourselves safe, by allowing any man who says he is a woman to come into our toilets, changing rooms, prisons and rape crisis groups.

How the hell is any of this compatible with feminism?

It's not.

Convincing liberal feminists that trans women - male people who have chosen to live their lives as women - are more oppressed than actual women, is one of the most audacious tricks the patriarchy has ever pulled.

We live a society where women are sexually harassed, raped, objectified, undermined, talked over, passed over for promotions, written off professionally because of our decision to have children or judged for our inability to have them or choice not to have them. The people who can take their makeup off, cut their hair short, put on a suit and tie and go back to being treated as men, with male privilege, are not more oppressed than the people who cannot do these things.

It's not difficult to see why so many young girls and women are looking at the way our society treats women and deciding they'd rather be a man. Some of them may alter their bodies to the extent that they can actually "pass" as men on a superficial level. But in order to do so they have to render themselves infertile, undergo invasive surgeries, take drugs which will have a lasting impact on their health, forego the possibility of ever really having a normal sex life or having children of their own. These are not sacrifices any man has ever had to make in order to live as and be treated like a man.

If all it takes for you to enjoy male privilege is to wear men's clothes, you are certainly NOT the most oppressed and vulnerable!

Feminism is for and about female people. If you make it about male people, and even worse, if you make it so that the small group of male people you have chosen to include take priority over the female people your movement is actually for, it no longer serves any useful purpose.

Andthereitis · 10/07/2024 11:05

IwantToRetire · 10/07/2024 00:34

So is she the real womens minister?

Good question. Maybe the other 2 are just a smoke screen! Grin

"real" women's minister.
Or "real women's minister"

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/07/2024 11:08

I'm interested in how this will play out to be honest, what with no prison space and men getting bailed left right and centre even when caught abducting young girls.

Crack on Jess and good luck.

This is an excellent point about the substance this role will have in real terms. But that's not Jess's fault. Whatever I think about her (and it's mixed, and although I admire her in some ways I don't trust her), she is quite a good choice for the role given the pool available.