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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Neil Gaiman accused of sexual assault

1000 replies

WandsOut · 04/07/2024 18:06

www.yahoo.com/entertainment/sandman-writer-neil-gaiman-denies-142813982.html

Story still unfolding in the news

OP posts:
Thread gallery
75
hihelenhi · 07/07/2024 15:44

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 07/07/2024 15:14

It really brings home how pathetic these BDSM types are. Wanting to 'dominate' and hurt a vulnerable young woman is the act of a total fucking inadequate.

the more I listen to this the more horrified I am. I'm feeling pretty fucking judgy of his wife too.

Yeah, exactly, they are. The defenders of BDSM will doubtless turn up to claim that it's totally fine and we're all just puritanical old pearl-clutchers, but I've always thought they were a bunch of sad sacks, twisting themselves into pretzels to desperately excuse the fact that they're attempting to legitimise abuse and violence as the main type of "great sex". Couldn't give a damn if I'm 'kink-shaming' either. "Kinks" are usually dysfunctional in one way or another, desperate attempts by addictive personalities get more and more of a "high". Imagine trying to make that the norm. It's sad, dysfunctional, and usually deeply misogynistic.

Oncemoreuntothebreachmother · 07/07/2024 16:20

hihelenhi · 07/07/2024 15:44

Yeah, exactly, they are. The defenders of BDSM will doubtless turn up to claim that it's totally fine and we're all just puritanical old pearl-clutchers, but I've always thought they were a bunch of sad sacks, twisting themselves into pretzels to desperately excuse the fact that they're attempting to legitimise abuse and violence as the main type of "great sex". Couldn't give a damn if I'm 'kink-shaming' either. "Kinks" are usually dysfunctional in one way or another, desperate attempts by addictive personalities get more and more of a "high". Imagine trying to make that the norm. It's sad, dysfunctional, and usually deeply misogynistic.

Well said

Signalbox · 07/07/2024 16:38

Grammarnut · 04/07/2024 21:44

Interesting. He worked with T. Pratchett, whose DW and DD apparently claim Pratchett would have said TWAW. The evidence for this is pretty i.e. dwarfs dress the same (inc beard) whether male or female and Monstrous Regiment (awful book, preachy) is all about women who cross dress to join the army (Pratchett gets the army all wrong since he has a nineteenth-century type army using medieval tactics - impossible). But the women in Monstrous Regiment do not think they are men, and the dwarfs know male from female when it matters, they are not cross-dressers at all.

Edited

I always think about this quote from Wyrd Sisters when I ponder what TP would have thought about the trans phenomenon…

Things that try to look like things often do look more like things than things. Well-known fact,” said Granny. “But I don't hold with encouraging it.

WandsOut · 07/07/2024 16:40

Agreed @hihelenhi but I meant it more as in using DT as a name drop to get women to be interested in him.

Something so cheap about that.

OP posts:
Signalbox · 07/07/2024 16:40

Apparently MRA Roz Kaveney is very good chums with NG.

StainlessSteelMouse · 07/07/2024 17:32

Laurie Penny is also very good chums with NG. Though do we really expect Penny to say anything about the man whose introductions got her into Hollywood?

hihelenhi · 07/07/2024 17:41

WandsOut · 07/07/2024 16:40

Agreed @hihelenhi but I meant it more as in using DT as a name drop to get women to be interested in him.

Something so cheap about that.

Yes, it's very, very creepy. Kind of "Do you want to come and see some puppies?" but for young women instead of kids. "Oh, if you come with me, I'll get you in with David." Seriously yuk.

What I want to know is, if his predilection for seeking out and shagging young female fans was such common knowledge in those circles, why the hell hasn't someone on a similar level celebwise to NG called it out? Where were the grownups?

alittleprivacy · 07/07/2024 19:24

StainlessSteelMouse · 06/07/2024 18:28

I've concluded that, for a lot of men in the public eye, being a male feminist is like the old practice of buying indulgences. It works with other left-coded causes too. Remember Weinstein's first reaction to being exposed was to promise to fund an anti-gun campaign. Who's to say that wouldn't have worked, if things had been slightly different?

And so Joss Whedon still gets work, and if the footage of Biden fundraisers is anything to go by, Bill Clinton is allowed out in public again. It's easy to condemn people you don't like or care about, but when it's a politician you've supported - or, much more difficult, an artist you've enjoyed and whose work you've really connected with - that's when there's a challenge.

Neil also has the advantage of being in the world of sci-fi and fantasy writers. I may be wrong, but I don't remember any of them raising alarms about Marion Zimmer Bradley until she was safely dead.

There's actually a very revealing thread on KF about the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers Association and the amount of their prominent members who were/are dodgy as fuck.

Geelonggetalong · 07/07/2024 19:31

What's KF? Kiwifarms?

SexyActsOfParodicSubversion · 07/07/2024 19:55

Bit of a tangent, but has anyone on this thread watched all of "Douglas Is Cancelled"?

teawamutu · 07/07/2024 20:25

namechangeforgoodreason · 07/07/2024 20:11

This was my take after listening to the podcast series: https://medium.com/@georginabruce/neil-gaiman-is-probably-not-a-monster-e5f6d92c1ff3

That's a great piece.

notathenabutcassandra · 07/07/2024 20:27

namechangeforgoodreason · 07/07/2024 20:11

This was my take after listening to the podcast series: https://medium.com/@georginabruce/neil-gaiman-is-probably-not-a-monster-e5f6d92c1ff3

This is really, really good.

StainlessSteelMouse · 07/07/2024 20:29

alittleprivacy · 07/07/2024 19:24

There's actually a very revealing thread on KF about the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers Association and the amount of their prominent members who were/are dodgy as fuck.

Oh, that whole scene is notorious for it.

The reason I mentioned Warren Ellis is because he's more or less exact contemporary of NG, in the same field, but even though he's a more interesting writer he's never achieved NG's level of hipster cool.

What happened with Ellis is, in the late 90s and early 2000s he was an unusually accessible writer. He had a forum and engaged a lot with fans on it. And engaged more with certain female fans. Some he ended up in bed with.

Now the reason I believe the stories is that all the stories about Ellis are similar, and because nobody comes out of them looking good. Ellis, who even then looked like a baked potato, was using his celebrity to get his dick wet. That's what men do. And the women who got involved with him were mostly aspiring artists or writers thinking he could get them into the comics industry. Everyone was using each other.

Does this make Warren Ellis sleazy as fuck? Of course it does, that's the nature of groupie culture, even in a small world like comics. But he's not been accused of anything on the level of Neil Gaiman, who seems to be into quite coercive stuff with much younger women who lack much opportunity to say no.

Ellis's career has been completely nuked over sleazy but consensual encounters from 20 years ago. Maybe he deserved it. But there's a pretty good chance Gaiman survives.

Just like #MeToo in Hollywood, it's very revealing who gets cancelled and who doesn't. It rarely corresponds to the severity of the offence.

VictorianBigot · 07/07/2024 20:34

namechangeforgoodreason · 07/07/2024 20:11

This was my take after listening to the podcast series: https://medium.com/@georginabruce/neil-gaiman-is-probably-not-a-monster-e5f6d92c1ff3

Brilliant

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 07/07/2024 20:49

namechangeforgoodreason · 07/07/2024 20:11

This was my take after listening to the podcast series: https://medium.com/@georginabruce/neil-gaiman-is-probably-not-a-monster-e5f6d92c1ff3

that is awfully, awfully good

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 07/07/2024 20:50

Had a bit of a light bulb moment during the third episode - coercive control is a con

people who are subjected to it don't want to admit to themselves that they've been victimised. it makes so much sense

WandsOut · 07/07/2024 21:03

namechangeforgoodreason · 07/07/2024 20:11

This was my take after listening to the podcast series: https://medium.com/@georginabruce/neil-gaiman-is-probably-not-a-monster-e5f6d92c1ff3

Perfect

OP posts:
namechangeforgoodreason · 07/07/2024 21:05

Thanks for reading my piece! I've been spamming it all over the place. The silence has been deafening. Shall change back to my usual name now... feeling like a secret agent!

TheMithrasDirective · 07/07/2024 21:14

Signalbox · 07/07/2024 16:38

I always think about this quote from Wyrd Sisters when I ponder what TP would have thought about the trans phenomenon…

Things that try to look like things often do look more like things than things. Well-known fact,” said Granny. “But I don't hold with encouraging it.

I was trying to remember this quote a few days ago, glad to see it here. There's quite often a theme of illusion vs reality and the dangers of not knowing the difference in Discworld books.

newnamethanks · 07/07/2024 21:37

I knew a similar man with a similar approach to young women. He seduced one friends sister, aged 13, and married another friend when she was 18. He tormented her until she killed herself a couple of years later. There's a very flattering piece on the net, a tribute to him and the positive effect he had on the careers of young musicians like the writer's I've always resisted the urge to write 'I hope you didn't let him babysit your daughters' in the comments. There will always be men like this. They will always be facilitated by those in thrall to them. 50 years ago, we didn't have a vocabulary sufficient to express the utter wrongness that we knew was happening and it was a man's world. No longer. Keep speaking.

Witchofthekitchen · 07/07/2024 23:47

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 07/07/2024 20:50

Had a bit of a light bulb moment during the third episode - coercive control is a con

people who are subjected to it don't want to admit to themselves that they've been victimised. it makes so much sense

I don’t know about this... Maybe it’s true for some people, but it wasn’t true for me. I was subjected to coercive control when I was in my late teens/early twenties and while I struggled to understand and come to terms with what happened to me, it had nothing to do with not wanting to admit that I’d been victimized. It was more that I didn’t believe anyone else would see it that way. I believed that since I’d consented (albeit under duress) it therefore couldn’t be rape and if I told anyone, no one would believe me (part of me still thinks that about my own situation). I knew it was wrong. I knew I didn’t want it, but he preyed on my insecurities and twisted my head around until I agreed to it. I didn’t feel anyone would believe me because I said yes and agreed to it.

VictorianBigot · 08/07/2024 00:18

In my case I just had no idea what was happening. I was like the posters referred to in @namechangeforgoodreason’s article… ‘my partner treats me horribly but he’s nice sometimes so it must be me’. It wasn’t anything to do with not wanting to admit I was a victim. When I was growing up I was always at fault so why would adulthood be any different. They tell you it’s all your fault, that you’re a fucking idiot, that you’re crazy, that everyone can see it but they’re afraid to say it to your face. They say ‘but I wasn’t shouting’, ‘that never happened’, ‘you’re twisting it’, ‘why are you making such a big deal of this’, ‘it’s normal’, ‘stop nagging me’’, ‘listen to yourself’, ‘I didn’t attack you, there’s something seriously wrong with your memory’, ‘I think you need to see a doctor about your memory’, ‘I barely touched you’.

They make you believe you should be grateful to them for putting up with you. They criticise your friends and make you mistrustful of them in order to isolate you. They push you, then pull you back by being nice. Next time they push you a little bit more, pull you back again just enough, then start the whole process again until they push you so far they break you. By which point you’re such a nervous wreck that you don’t know which way’s up and which way’s down, all you know is that the problem is you and you need them. It feels safe to be controlled because you can no longer control or trust yourself, you no longer know how to make decisions for yourself, and can’t trust anyone else.

UtopiaPlanitia · 08/07/2024 02:11

namechangeforgoodreason · 07/07/2024 20:11

This was my take after listening to the podcast series: https://medium.com/@georginabruce/neil-gaiman-is-probably-not-a-monster-e5f6d92c1ff3

That’s wonderfully written and really explains the complexity in a lot of sexual abuse that our society refuses to acknowledge and thus punishes women (and children too) for not being the unimpeachable, perfect victims that society wants them to be in order to see them as worth protecting and the men as deserving punishment.

BezMills · 08/07/2024 03:37

namechangeforgoodreason · 07/07/2024 21:05

Thanks for reading my piece! I've been spamming it all over the place. The silence has been deafening. Shall change back to my usual name now... feeling like a secret agent!

Very well written, thanks

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