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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Neil Gaiman accused of sexual assault

1000 replies

WandsOut · 04/07/2024 18:06

www.yahoo.com/entertainment/sandman-writer-neil-gaiman-denies-142813982.html

Story still unfolding in the news

OP posts:
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75
notathenabutcassandra · 24/08/2024 23:39

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Neil Gaiman accused of sexual assault
annejumps · 25/08/2024 01:15

Saucery · 24/08/2024 20:13

As he was totally riding on the coattails of Terry Pratchett since the book was published I imagine they will concentrate on that aspect.

Wasn't the second season no longer really based on existing canon as it was, thereby diluting TP's amount of influence even further? The third season I think NG is supposed to be making it up as he goes based on what he thinks the fans want. /somewhat tongue in cheek

teawamutu · 25/08/2024 10:12

annejumps · 25/08/2024 01:15

Wasn't the second season no longer really based on existing canon as it was, thereby diluting TP's amount of influence even further? The third season I think NG is supposed to be making it up as he goes based on what he thinks the fans want. /somewhat tongue in cheek

Yep. I genuinely didn't like the second season, even though GO is one of my very favourite books (and will remain so, I always thought of it as essentially a Pratchett title with a few gaiman touches).

So self-consciously queer-coded and draped in rainbows that the story was totally overshadowed. And the kiss at the end was an undermining of what I loved about Crowley and Aziraphale; the simple power of friendship to cross divides. NG ruined it, and that was just when I thought he was a wokey twat and shitty selfish father.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 25/08/2024 10:21

I always thought of it as essentially a Pratchett title with a few gaiman touches

Such as the bit where a young woman has sex.with a man she doesn't particularly like because her ancestor/a book told her to?

Hairyesterdaygonetoday · 25/08/2024 10:34

teawamutu · 20/08/2024 08:38

A wokescreen, if you will?

Perfect! A very useful new word, applicable in many contexts. And once people know they’re looking at a wokescreen, they start seeing through it…

teawamutu · 25/08/2024 10:58

NoBinturongsHereMate · 25/08/2024 10:21

I always thought of it as essentially a Pratchett title with a few gaiman touches

Such as the bit where a young woman has sex.with a man she doesn't particularly like because her ancestor/a book told her to?

Oh gods I hadn't thought of that bit. Yes, that doesn't sound very Pterry, does it?

AnotherHelenB · 25/08/2024 22:41

Re. GO, I may be wrong, but I'm sure I read that Series 2 was a bridging thing written to get to the sequel that they had drafted. Which would account for it being less-than-brilliant/as described by @teawamutu. Though I'm not sure how much I'd trust anything I read about it now, since Pratchett is no longer with us to corroborate. Sad

taylorswift1989 · 26/08/2024 06:52

Does someone want to start a new thread and link it here? I'm happy to do it but I need my laptop which is currently in another house!

LilyBartsHatShop · 26/08/2024 10:26

I had a long drive today, and found myself thinking alot about these revelations around Neil Gaiman, and also thinking alot about this thread, and this forum. What is it about the Gaiman story that connects with the sex and gender issues that this forum is set up to discuss?
My conclusion is that it's very relevant.
I think about the number of people who have said that they're not overly surprised to hear this about Gaimen. And then my own realisation that, actually, I could count on one hand the number of male novelists that I wouldn't be overly surprised to hear a revelation like this about. Not because I think male authors are particularly reppelant, but because they almost all demonstrate the same inability to recognise female people are just as real and whole and vibrant and existent as male people.
In so much fiction the female characters are an appendage, an afterthought, a helpmeet to the progress of the protagonist. The idea of a woman having a rich inner life, a genius all her own, an existence that makes no essential reference to a single male person, is beyond their ken.
And I think that ties in intimately with the whole point of this forum.

Lots of fly-by posters imagine that we have an "ick" response to the idea of transness, and that's what makes (some of) us hostile to the impositions (what I would call colonisation) of trans women, claiming womanhood.

But it's not the trans-ness at all. It's the same inability to really believe that female people actually exist, whole unto themselves, that we've come across over and over and over again. From male authors, from lovers, from friends, from our fathers, our brothers. It's not something we decide is true because we don't like trans women. Male people don't like to acknowledge our separate existence, they are all much happier with the idea that "woman" is an idea in a male person's head, a feeling, an identity, a dependency on the truly human.

Iamiams · 26/08/2024 11:04

The reason it’s so relevant is it is, as pp described, a perfect example of a ‘wokescreen’ happening.

JKRowling must have a good radar for these things as she created fantastical worlds too so over time realised how fanatical a certain type of vulnerable fan could be. She has realised and used her ‘power’ as a writer and her money for good. Despite whether it is woke/trendy/vogue she has consistently and (in the past quietly) championed vulnerable women and children.

Whereas others pretend they are good/safe by creating a wokescreen.

The problem is, that when you create your wokescreen in prolific social media use then it becomes very obvious when it all comes out. And the same kind of fanatical fan is the type then trawls back through social media to join the dots.

The wokescreen has cracked and possibly shattered.

taylorswift1989 · 26/08/2024 15:41

Thank you!

Dervel · 26/08/2024 20:05

Well this aged well:

taylorswift1989 · 26/08/2024 21:53

Dervel · 26/08/2024 20:05

Well this aged well:

What the actual fuck.

Neil Gaiman and his bevy of sexy birds??? Fucking grim.

WandsOut · 27/08/2024 00:33

State of him in that video. Baggy underpants, hairy nips and when he took his T shirt off I thought he was going to choke up a hairball.

Needs more than a bucket of cold water.

OP posts:
TempestTost · 27/08/2024 02:06

LilyBartsHatShop · 26/08/2024 10:26

I had a long drive today, and found myself thinking alot about these revelations around Neil Gaiman, and also thinking alot about this thread, and this forum. What is it about the Gaiman story that connects with the sex and gender issues that this forum is set up to discuss?
My conclusion is that it's very relevant.
I think about the number of people who have said that they're not overly surprised to hear this about Gaimen. And then my own realisation that, actually, I could count on one hand the number of male novelists that I wouldn't be overly surprised to hear a revelation like this about. Not because I think male authors are particularly reppelant, but because they almost all demonstrate the same inability to recognise female people are just as real and whole and vibrant and existent as male people.
In so much fiction the female characters are an appendage, an afterthought, a helpmeet to the progress of the protagonist. The idea of a woman having a rich inner life, a genius all her own, an existence that makes no essential reference to a single male person, is beyond their ken.
And I think that ties in intimately with the whole point of this forum.

Lots of fly-by posters imagine that we have an "ick" response to the idea of transness, and that's what makes (some of) us hostile to the impositions (what I would call colonisation) of trans women, claiming womanhood.

But it's not the trans-ness at all. It's the same inability to really believe that female people actually exist, whole unto themselves, that we've come across over and over and over again. From male authors, from lovers, from friends, from our fathers, our brothers. It's not something we decide is true because we don't like trans women. Male people don't like to acknowledge our separate existence, they are all much happier with the idea that "woman" is an idea in a male person's head, a feeling, an identity, a dependency on the truly human.

This reminds me of the idea of archetype projection.

I think we probably all struggle with this a little, especially when young, but in my experience it's not especially a male thing. We tend to see others through a kind of lens, as a role they fulfill for us, be it a mentor, mother, lover, etc.

Friends seem more often immune to this kind of scenario, interestingly.

It can be hard work to get past this kind of projection and see the individuals for themselves.

YellowAsteroid · 27/08/2024 04:54

Beautiful post @LilyBartsHatShop

It's why I don't warm to the novels of David Nicholls. Especially One Day.

The French feminist writer, Catherine Clémènt wrote in her book on opera that in order for the man to become a hero, the woman must die.

It's chilling, but it's true if you think of literary archetypes and recurring plot structures.

notathenabutcassandra · 27/08/2024 07:48

Sorry all, been a tough few days IRL, I'll update both threads with the counter until this one closes

Neil Gaiman accused of sexual assault
notathenabutcassandra · 27/08/2024 07:50

Dervel · 26/08/2024 20:05

Well this aged well:

🤢🤮

ArabellaScott · 27/08/2024 10:39

Thanks, cassandra. Hope all's okay with you.

Iamiams · 27/08/2024 10:56

horrific

ExtraordinaryMachine1 · 27/08/2024 11:26

@LilyBartsHatShop thank you for that eloquent description, it is really very helpful in clarifying my own thoughts.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/08/2024 11:43

Thanks for link to new podcast episode @Dervel

Meadowwild · 27/08/2024 22:48

LilyBartsHatShop · 26/08/2024 10:26

I had a long drive today, and found myself thinking alot about these revelations around Neil Gaiman, and also thinking alot about this thread, and this forum. What is it about the Gaiman story that connects with the sex and gender issues that this forum is set up to discuss?
My conclusion is that it's very relevant.
I think about the number of people who have said that they're not overly surprised to hear this about Gaimen. And then my own realisation that, actually, I could count on one hand the number of male novelists that I wouldn't be overly surprised to hear a revelation like this about. Not because I think male authors are particularly reppelant, but because they almost all demonstrate the same inability to recognise female people are just as real and whole and vibrant and existent as male people.
In so much fiction the female characters are an appendage, an afterthought, a helpmeet to the progress of the protagonist. The idea of a woman having a rich inner life, a genius all her own, an existence that makes no essential reference to a single male person, is beyond their ken.
And I think that ties in intimately with the whole point of this forum.

Lots of fly-by posters imagine that we have an "ick" response to the idea of transness, and that's what makes (some of) us hostile to the impositions (what I would call colonisation) of trans women, claiming womanhood.

But it's not the trans-ness at all. It's the same inability to really believe that female people actually exist, whole unto themselves, that we've come across over and over and over again. From male authors, from lovers, from friends, from our fathers, our brothers. It's not something we decide is true because we don't like trans women. Male people don't like to acknowledge our separate existence, they are all much happier with the idea that "woman" is an idea in a male person's head, a feeling, an identity, a dependency on the truly human.

Brilliantly put.

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