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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Starmer is asked about toilets AGAIN

82 replies

ifIwerenotanandroid · 29/06/2024 20:25

https://x.com/addicted2newz/status/1807058069941027227

And guess what his answer is?

x.com

https://x.com/addicted2newz/status/1807058069941027227

OP posts:
ifIwerenotanandroid · 30/06/2024 12:38

Many thanks to @Chersfrozenface

I'm putting some extracts from the document here. Bold is mine.

Whatever our personal views, we should frankly recognize that these proposals were put before the country at the recent General Election and that the people of this country, with full knowledge of these proposals, returned the Labour Party to power. The Government may, therefore, I think, fairly claim that they have a mandate to introduce these proposals. I believe that it would be constitutionally wrong, when the country has so recently expressed its view, for this House to oppose proposals which have been definitely put before the electorate. (HL Hansard, 16th August 1945, vol. 137, col. 47)

Because of the large Labour majority in the Commons in 1945, it was therefore possible for us who belonged to the opposition to make it our broad guiding rule that what had been on the Labour Party programme at the preceding General Election should be regarded as having been approved by the British people. Therefore ... we passed all the nationalisation Bills, although we cordially disliked them, on the second reading and did our best to improve them and make them more workable at committee stage. Where, however, measures were introduced which had not been in the Labour Party Manifesto at the preceding Election, we reserved full liberty of action. (HL Hansard, 4th November 1964, vol. 261, col. 66)

Cranborne reckoned that it was not the duty of the House of Lords to make our system of government inoperable. Nor, he considered, was it justified that the Opposition peers should use their voting strength to wreck any measure which the Government had made plain at a General Election that they proposed to introduce ... [this] meant that the Lords should, if they saw fit, amend, but should not destroy or alter beyond recognition, any Bill on which the country had, by implication, given its verdict. The Lords, in other words, should not frustrate the will of the people. I doubt if this amounted to a formal constitutional doctrine but as a way of behaving it seemed to be very sensible ... Cranborne had to allow some robust words and tactics, but still retain sufficient control to prevent the passing by the Opposition of ‘wrecking’ amendments – as opposed to those which could perhaps draw a good deal of the poison from a Bill without seeming to destroy it utterly. There was, of course, argument about what constituted a wrecking amendment and what did not: but, by and large, the Salisbury strategy worked and the Salisbury convention – of no wrecking amendments – was observed. To this day the convention continues ... Later in life I applied the same convention myself. (Lord Carrington, Reflect on Things Past: The Memoirs of Lord Carrington (1988), pp. 77–78)

The definition of the Salisbury Doctrine:
The Salisbury Doctrine, or "Convention" as it is sometimes called, emerged from the working arrangements reached during the Labour Government of 1945-51, when the fifth Marquess of Salisbury was the Leader of the Conservative Opposition in the Lords. The Convention ensures that major Government Bills can get through the Lords when the Government of the day has no majority in the Lords. In practice, it means that the Lords does not try to vote down at second or third reading, a Government Bill mentioned in an election manifesto.

So it seems to me the question is, does the Labour Party's performance so far meet the requirement 'that the people of this country' have 'full knowledge of these proposals'? I'd say no, we don't have full knowledge of what the Labour Party proposes to do, so it doesn't meet the requirement..

OP posts:
LonginesPrime · 30/06/2024 12:41

illinivich · 29/06/2024 20:40

Notice he calls it the Equalities Act, not the Equality Act.

Its a small detail, but I'd have thought he'd know the correct name of an act he supports so much. Lots of activist call it the Equalities act, so i wonder if hes picked it up from them.

Yes, exactly.

He clearly hasn't looked up the act on his own or checked what it actually says and is merely being fed lines by others who haven't read it either.

As a lawyer, when I look up a statute to discuss it's application to the situation at hand, one of the first things I make sure I do is get the name of the legislation right so I don't look silly when I'm trying to gain the upper hand in a negotiation or present myself as a trusted advisor on the law.

It really does beggar belief that after all this public discussion around single sex spaces and protection of women and girls, Starmer hasn't even bothered to go back to the Equality Act itself as the source of the legal protections to check what it actually says about these issues.

This is especially surprising since Starmer's position is that the EA is absolutely fine and very robust as it currently stands - if that is the case (and I can see how this could be plausibly argued by him if the exemptions were better understood and upheld), then why would he not read the legislation then make a coherent argument for based on the law that he says is already fit for purpose?

The fact that Starmer as a lawyer can't even correctly name, let alone explain, the legislation that supposedly adequately safeguards women's single-sex spaces completely undermines his claim that the current EA is fit for purpose.

Brainworm · 30/06/2024 12:54

I think the arguments are over engineered.

If people think a given single sex provision is needed/justifiable, it must hold that access should be determined by sex. If not, they should be questioning the need/case for the provision being single sec in the first place.

I think those arguing for trans women to access 'women's only' provision are viewing it as single gender. However, I can't imagine why we would ever need segregation by gender. What would the rationale be? I presume it would be that trans women are as at risk to violent males as females. But, the same is true for for gay males and learning disabled males, should they access single sex provision for females too?

Runningupthecurtains · 30/06/2024 12:59

But, the same is true for for gay males and learning disabled males, should they access single sex provision for females too?

And old men, and sick men, and small men and boy.

Perhaps we should have 'fit, young and youngish, straight, alpha men' spaces and 'anyone else's spaces.

bluecomputerscreen · 30/06/2024 13:04

ifIwerenotanandroid · 30/06/2024 12:38

Many thanks to @Chersfrozenface

I'm putting some extracts from the document here. Bold is mine.

Whatever our personal views, we should frankly recognize that these proposals were put before the country at the recent General Election and that the people of this country, with full knowledge of these proposals, returned the Labour Party to power. The Government may, therefore, I think, fairly claim that they have a mandate to introduce these proposals. I believe that it would be constitutionally wrong, when the country has so recently expressed its view, for this House to oppose proposals which have been definitely put before the electorate. (HL Hansard, 16th August 1945, vol. 137, col. 47)

Because of the large Labour majority in the Commons in 1945, it was therefore possible for us who belonged to the opposition to make it our broad guiding rule that what had been on the Labour Party programme at the preceding General Election should be regarded as having been approved by the British people. Therefore ... we passed all the nationalisation Bills, although we cordially disliked them, on the second reading and did our best to improve them and make them more workable at committee stage. Where, however, measures were introduced which had not been in the Labour Party Manifesto at the preceding Election, we reserved full liberty of action. (HL Hansard, 4th November 1964, vol. 261, col. 66)

Cranborne reckoned that it was not the duty of the House of Lords to make our system of government inoperable. Nor, he considered, was it justified that the Opposition peers should use their voting strength to wreck any measure which the Government had made plain at a General Election that they proposed to introduce ... [this] meant that the Lords should, if they saw fit, amend, but should not destroy or alter beyond recognition, any Bill on which the country had, by implication, given its verdict. The Lords, in other words, should not frustrate the will of the people. I doubt if this amounted to a formal constitutional doctrine but as a way of behaving it seemed to be very sensible ... Cranborne had to allow some robust words and tactics, but still retain sufficient control to prevent the passing by the Opposition of ‘wrecking’ amendments – as opposed to those which could perhaps draw a good deal of the poison from a Bill without seeming to destroy it utterly. There was, of course, argument about what constituted a wrecking amendment and what did not: but, by and large, the Salisbury strategy worked and the Salisbury convention – of no wrecking amendments – was observed. To this day the convention continues ... Later in life I applied the same convention myself. (Lord Carrington, Reflect on Things Past: The Memoirs of Lord Carrington (1988), pp. 77–78)

The definition of the Salisbury Doctrine:
The Salisbury Doctrine, or "Convention" as it is sometimes called, emerged from the working arrangements reached during the Labour Government of 1945-51, when the fifth Marquess of Salisbury was the Leader of the Conservative Opposition in the Lords. The Convention ensures that major Government Bills can get through the Lords when the Government of the day has no majority in the Lords. In practice, it means that the Lords does not try to vote down at second or third reading, a Government Bill mentioned in an election manifesto.

So it seems to me the question is, does the Labour Party's performance so far meet the requirement 'that the people of this country' have 'full knowledge of these proposals'? I'd say no, we don't have full knowledge of what the Labour Party proposes to do, so it doesn't meet the requirement..

they did the same with the brexit vote....

Sue152 · 30/06/2024 13:09

I went in a KFC yesterday where there was a door to a communal space with 4 sinks and 4 cubicles, 2 womens, 2 mens. It was all crammed in a tiny space and although I felt fine in the toilet I felt really uncomfortable in the small communal space. I wouldn't want my young daughter in there alone.

illinivich · 30/06/2024 13:46

LonginesPrime · 30/06/2024 12:41

Yes, exactly.

He clearly hasn't looked up the act on his own or checked what it actually says and is merely being fed lines by others who haven't read it either.

As a lawyer, when I look up a statute to discuss it's application to the situation at hand, one of the first things I make sure I do is get the name of the legislation right so I don't look silly when I'm trying to gain the upper hand in a negotiation or present myself as a trusted advisor on the law.

It really does beggar belief that after all this public discussion around single sex spaces and protection of women and girls, Starmer hasn't even bothered to go back to the Equality Act itself as the source of the legal protections to check what it actually says about these issues.

This is especially surprising since Starmer's position is that the EA is absolutely fine and very robust as it currently stands - if that is the case (and I can see how this could be plausibly argued by him if the exemptions were better understood and upheld), then why would he not read the legislation then make a coherent argument for based on the law that he says is already fit for purpose?

The fact that Starmer as a lawyer can't even correctly name, let alone explain, the legislation that supposedly adequately safeguards women's single-sex spaces completely undermines his claim that the current EA is fit for purpose.

Starmer is leaning heavily on his time in CPS as proof that the public should trust him and his party. But he's stating an act that doesnt exist, and Wes Streeting seems surprised that the group of nurses are having to take their employers to court to get single sex changing rooms.

That's not a team who understands the law.

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