Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Cross party support to make misogyny a hate crime

222 replies

CassieMaddox · 18/06/2024 23:30

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c899nxwz3y3o

Reform and Conservatives not interested, natch.

But this is great news. Looks like it will happen, and about bloody time.

A cardboard sign saying "STOP KILLING US" is seen at a memorial site, among candles and flowers, in Clapham Common Bandstand, following the kidnap and murder of Sarah Everard

Support for plan to make misogyny a hate crime

There have been cross party calls to make misogyny a hate crime on during an election debate on women's safety.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c899nxwz3y3o

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Morwenscapacioussleeves · 21/06/2024 00:12

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/06/2024 00:05

Why is all about what the man deserves, not justice for his victims?

Sorry, I should have said: Why is it all about your imaginary man deserves and not about justice for real alive women now?

As I said before I was taking about current law - misogyny is not currently an aggravating factor/hate crime.

(& why my original example was all men🤦🏻‍♀️)

Imnobody4 · 21/06/2024 00:21

Morwenscapacioussleeves · 21/06/2024 00:10

Men commit 99% of violent crime 🤷‍♀️

Why is the victim who is not of a recognised group less deserving of justice?

Justice should be blind & equal.

Absolutely agree. The fundamental principle is equality before the law. I originally supported racially motivated hate crime legislation but as usual there's an inevitable expansion which ends up destroying the protection of this basic principle.

Imnobody4 · 21/06/2024 00:33

CassieMaddox · 20/06/2024 23:04

I'm.not sure how that is relevant to trans issues? Confused

My thoughts on 'the trans issue'.
I consider the trans movement inherently misogynistic. Do you really think Labour will allow transwomen to be prosecuted under hate crime legislation.
eg at a LWS rally I have a milkshake thrown over me. I consider the motive to be a misogynistic hatred of my immutable biological sex.

As far as I'm concerned this is an attack by a man.

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/06/2024 00:39

Imnobody4 · 21/06/2024 00:21

Absolutely agree. The fundamental principle is equality before the law. I originally supported racially motivated hate crime legislation but as usual there's an inevitable expansion which ends up destroying the protection of this basic principle.

Thanks for explaining it @Imnobody4.Thanks

Sounds like you and @Morwenscapacioussleeves are Equalists. I'm a Feminist. My focus is women's rights.

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/06/2024 00:42

Justice should be blind & equal.

I agree, but that is not the case. Especially not for women. That's why feminism exists.

CassieMaddox · 21/06/2024 08:09

Imnobody4 · 21/06/2024 00:33

My thoughts on 'the trans issue'.
I consider the trans movement inherently misogynistic. Do you really think Labour will allow transwomen to be prosecuted under hate crime legislation.
eg at a LWS rally I have a milkshake thrown over me. I consider the motive to be a misogynistic hatred of my immutable biological sex.

As far as I'm concerned this is an attack by a man.

Do you really think Labour will allow transwomen to be prosecuted under hate crime legislation
Yes of course they will. If they commit a crime, they will be prosecuted. Noone gets a free pass Confused

a LWS rally I have a milkshake thrown over me. I consider the motive to be a misogynistic hatred of my immutable biological sex.
That would be an assault and aggravated by misogyny therefore a hate crime

As far as I'm concerned this is an attack by a man. That is true but also totally irrelevant to the fact this is a misogynistic hate crime. Hate crimes are about crime + motivation, nothing to do with any attributes of the offender.

OP posts:
Imnobody4 · 21/06/2024 10:23

CassieMaddox · 21/06/2024 08:09

Do you really think Labour will allow transwomen to be prosecuted under hate crime legislation
Yes of course they will. If they commit a crime, they will be prosecuted. Noone gets a free pass Confused

a LWS rally I have a milkshake thrown over me. I consider the motive to be a misogynistic hatred of my immutable biological sex.
That would be an assault and aggravated by misogyny therefore a hate crime

As far as I'm concerned this is an attack by a man. That is true but also totally irrelevant to the fact this is a misogynistic hate crime. Hate crimes are about crime + motivation, nothing to do with any attributes of the offender.

You are forgetting the proof. It is assault - yes. However for a charge of hate crime of misogyny - what do you think the defence would be.
I can tell you now. ' I don't hate women , I am one. I threw the milkshake because she is a transphobic misogynist attacking the rights of transwomen.' Think India W.

You say the crime is in the motivation, but it is also in the perception of the victim - that is where the charge originates.

CassieMaddox · 21/06/2024 10:35

Imnobody4 · 21/06/2024 10:23

You are forgetting the proof. It is assault - yes. However for a charge of hate crime of misogyny - what do you think the defence would be.
I can tell you now. ' I don't hate women , I am one. I threw the milkshake because she is a transphobic misogynist attacking the rights of transwomen.' Think India W.

You say the crime is in the motivation, but it is also in the perception of the victim - that is where the charge originates.

It's the same as any other hate crime "proof"

Why is it too difficult when it comes to misogyny, but not racism, homophobia, anti semitism etc?

OP posts:
CassieMaddox · 21/06/2024 10:37

https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime

I don't think it is hard. Just add "female sex" into this:

Any crime can be prosecuted as a hate crime if the offender has either:

demonstrated hostility based on race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity
Or

been motivated by hostility based on race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity

Hate crime | The Crown Prosecution Service

https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime

OP posts:
Imnobody4 · 21/06/2024 10:46

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/06/2024 00:39

Thanks for explaining it @Imnobody4.Thanks

Sounds like you and @Morwenscapacioussleeves are Equalists. I'm a Feminist. My focus is women's rights.

Thanks for labelling me, but you're wrong, I'm the feminist. I just don't believe hate crime legislation helps anything. The issue is first and foremost about how to get convictions while maintaining the integrity the legal system. Hate crime is not just a distraction but waste of time.https://www.thetimes.com/article/01e72a39-7852-4d64-89ae-ea6872f343a6?shareToken=a73e06f068732d70edbcf03b83cea32fThe criminal justice system is not “fit for purpose” when it comes to providing justice for rape victims, according to a woman who spent eight years in a court battle with a therapist accused of being a sexual predator.Ella Janneh was awarded more than £200,000 in a civil case against Michael Lousada, a sex therapist who was said to have claimed that his penis was a “laser beam” that could “burn up trauma”.

The law failed me, says woman who sued sex therapist for rape and won

Police said there was no chance of convicting Michael Lousada, who was said to have claimed that his penis was a “laser beam” that could “burn up trauma”. She proved them wrong

https://www.thetimes.com/article/01e72a39-7852-4d64-89ae-ea6872f343a6?shareToken=a73e06f068732d70edbcf03b83cea32f

CassieMaddox · 21/06/2024 10:49

Maybe we could do both things? Women are being horrifically failed at every turn by this government. That case really shows that. It is mind-boggling that the CPS chose not to prosecute him. And amazing for her she got some kind of justice, brave woman.

OP posts:
sawdustformypony · 21/06/2024 11:26

That Times article was a dog's breakfast - you couldn't work out what happened from that. No wonder the CPS declined to take it further.

CassieMaddox · 21/06/2024 11:36

sawdustformypony · 21/06/2024 11:26

That Times article was a dog's breakfast - you couldn't work out what happened from that. No wonder the CPS declined to take it further.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68856510

That might help.

I would have thought the power imbalance between a therapist and his patient plus the fact it doesn't look like he disputed sex occurred would have led the CPS to charge him. I'll start a separate thread so as not to derail this one

Ella Janneh

Michael Lousada: Therapist accused of raping client during session

Ella Janneh has brought a civil claim against Michael Lousada after he faced no criminal charges.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68856510

OP posts:
CassieMaddox · 21/06/2024 11:40

Actually we could just use my existing thread about unbelievable rape defences

Saying that a woman would believe that "my penis is a laser that can burn up trauma" as a valid therapy technique would appear to be one of those.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4648441-a-list-of-seemingly-unbelievable-not-rapes-according-to-the-cps-and-juries?page=5&reply=136184296

Page 5 | A list of seemingly unbelievable not-rapes (according to the CPS and juries) | Mumsnet

Inspired by this news where someone who reported a rape and was told they might have sexsomnia https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63116989 So these are o...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4648441-a-list-of-seemingly-unbelievable-not-rapes-according-to-the-cps-and-juries?page=5&reply=136184296

OP posts:
Morwenscapacioussleeves · 21/06/2024 11:46

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/06/2024 00:39

Thanks for explaining it @Imnobody4.Thanks

Sounds like you and @Morwenscapacioussleeves are Equalists. I'm a Feminist. My focus is women's rights.

You're wrong (& ridiculous) but I think you know that.

you haven't engaged in good faith with me a single time & I won't be engaging further.

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/06/2024 11:55

The criminal justice system is not “fit for purpose” when it comes to providing justice for rape victims,

It is totally unfit for purpose. But that's hardly surprising after 14 years of Tories who practically decriminalised rape and opposed safeguarding measures to protect those who work for them, nevermind women as a class.

I'm looking forward to a new, less "helpless"🙄 government that will work for women.

Imnobody4 · 21/06/2024 12:02

What - you trust this man. Time will tell.

twitter.com/Sorelle_Arduino/status/1803895987255079017?t=blcDvb96Zy5_pfeTX3GeGA&s=19

BackToLurk · 21/06/2024 12:30

CassieMaddox · 21/06/2024 10:35

It's the same as any other hate crime "proof"

Why is it too difficult when it comes to misogyny, but not racism, homophobia, anti semitism etc?

Proof was one of the factors raised by RCEW. The majority of VAWG takes place on a domestic setting. It’s a very different profile to other crimes. Their concern is that it would be almost impossible to prove the ‘hate’ element. You then set up a ‘less serious’ tier of crime against women. Get hit and called a stupid bitch in the pub? Hate crime. Same thing happens at home. Not so much.

CassieMaddox · 21/06/2024 12:37

Imnobody4 · 21/06/2024 12:02

Yes. 100% agreed with his answer last night. Judging by applause, most of the audience did too.

OP posts:
CassieMaddox · 21/06/2024 12:39

BackToLurk · 21/06/2024 12:30

Proof was one of the factors raised by RCEW. The majority of VAWG takes place on a domestic setting. It’s a very different profile to other crimes. Their concern is that it would be almost impossible to prove the ‘hate’ element. You then set up a ‘less serious’ tier of crime against women. Get hit and called a stupid bitch in the pub? Hate crime. Same thing happens at home. Not so much.

Yeah I can see that.
I think I'd take "2 tier crime" over "get hit and called a bitch" in any setting being decriminalised though.

Hopefully if it's not tolerated in public that would percolate through to men's attitudes more generally and stop it happening in private as much too.

OP posts:
UtopiaPlanitia · 21/06/2024 14:09

CassieMaddox · 21/06/2024 10:35

It's the same as any other hate crime "proof"

Why is it too difficult when it comes to misogyny, but not racism, homophobia, anti semitism etc?

Off the top of my head, I think the reason misogyny is harder to implement as a potential hate crime is the current political narrative that males can sometimes become women. If we didn’t have that belief floating around in the political and social aether then I firmly believe it would be easier to attempt to frame legislation around punishing misogyny.

But as things currently stand legally, allowing males to obtain a legal sex of woman means the law is inadequate to the task of defining what women are, in and of themselves, as a category. Therefore, it seems to me that if the law can’t adequately define a category of persons (in this case women), any politicians adopting the existing legal definition/consensus (based both on the law and any previous precedent-setting legal decisions) can’t adequately draft legislation to protect that particular category of persons.

We need to ring fence the definition of woman to apply only to adult human females before we can attempt to frame an anti-misogyny law that wouldn’t also allow men to use gender ideology-related definitions of woman as a defence against charges of misogyny made against them or to use the anti-misogyny law to punish women for being 'misogynistic' towards them.

Another consideration that’s occurred to me is that genderists in all administrations of the UK, both devolved and at Westminster, are very keen to create an opportunity to define women in any law they can, This is in order to have a gender identity-friendly definition (that includes males) appearing on the statute books somewhere as a basis to be built on in the future. And I think they would push hard to use any new anti-misogyny legislation for this purpose too.

GardenCherisher · 21/06/2024 16:41

TempestTost · 19/06/2024 00:53

I don't think anything should be a hate crime. A crime is a crime. It's not worse because someone falls into a particular identity category.

I think in general it's worth taking into account the wider causes implications of a crime.
For example, if the perpetrator targets strangers, then that may very well mean they're more dangerous. If they incite or influence others to behave likewise, ditto.

Do we gain anything by putting people with prejudices that they nurse into violence on one side, and habitual offenders who are addicts, of sexual predators, or career criminals, or can't think things through and control themselves at all, on the other?

We've had "hate crime" as a thing for a while, has it been helpful or not?

I am on the fence a bit. Where will, e.g. adding misogyny to the list help, are there cases not covered by existing laws like breach of peace, inciting violence etc?

New posts on this thread. Refresh page