Keir Starmer to end Tory Culture Wars

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Oh what a relief. Where would we be without him?

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/exclusive-keir-starmer-says-he-will-end-tory-culture-wars-if-he-becomes-prime-minister_uk_6666d7d2e4b02fc48bf3ec39?d_id=7763591&ncid_tag=tweetlnkukhpmg00000001&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=uk_main

As for the teen point, how many do you actually know who read kiwifarms and 4chan?

This is extraordinarily naive. Do you think all teens are left wing?

Many on KF and 4Chan wouldn't consider themselves right wing anyway, they're just into trolling etc.

I would explain northern working class views as historically coming from Methodist Ideals of hard work, community minded and socially conservative.

Yes I agree and same with historically Celtic fringe WCs in Wales. Calvinism in Scotland. That's why there were so many WC temperance movements (that and a recognition of the damage alcoholism could do in WC communities especially in the domestic sphere).

You also have Roman Catholic WC culture which has a slightly different approach to a number of social issues, but still social conservatism in many ways.

WC communities are more vulnerable to societal breakdown from unemployement, alcohol, crime and drugs and this is why they've tended to be socially conservative on these issues. Liberalism embraces a 'pleasure first, do what you like' orthodoxy which is of course relatively consequence-free if you have money and status.

No.
I think teenagers think forums are for old people and access their information in ways that are unfamiliar to us. All the ones I know do anyway, and they have a wide range of political views - left and right.

Young people will always love saying stuff they're not 'supposed' to say and I think over time this will lead to more and more youth support form rightist fringe parties.

Yes.

I think teenagers think forums are for old people and access their information in ways that are unfamiliar to us. All the ones I know do anyway, and they have a wide range of political views - left and right.

What are these "ways that are unfamiliar to us"? You're speaking for yourself, here. Not other people who may be more familiar.

Is Reddit a "forum"?

The polling before the European Parliament elections showed how many young people are turning to right wing parties.

The collapse of the Greens has a lot to do with them losing youth support. Five years ago they very effectively positioned themselves as the voice of youth. That isn't working now.

Meanwhile in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Germany's poorest state, the SPD-Linke government think it's a good use of public resources for the police to pull a 16-year-old girl out of class and caution her for posting AfD-sympathetic Smurf memes to TikTok. (I am not making this up.)

SaltPorridge · Yesterday 08:28

I would like this war to end. What Starmer is saying sounds like appeasement.

And hasn't he just chosen the wrong side to appease? The vociferous, tiny minority, who have power well beyond their actual means and who are put on a pedestal. He exists in a bubble, but unfortunately, it's no ordinary bubble, in that it's difficult to burst.

He simply refuses to come to any sort of accommodation on this, convinced of his own rectitude and reinforced in his opinion, by those closest to him, stabbing in the back those like Rosie Duffield. He's an aberration.

I think it's worth pausing for thought as to what "left wing" and "right wing" might actually mean. For instance, some of the core beliefs of the modern radical-progressive are:

• Racial and sexual essentialism.
• Censorship of the views of their opponents.
• Opposition to Jews and Israel.
• Violence and and the threat of violence are acceptable for a virtuous cause.
• The key duty of companies is defer to progressive viewpoints.

And it's all conceived of in terms of identity, rather than policy. This is what is passed off as left-win politics in the contemporary world. In the twentieth century this would be regarded as far right, and flirting with fascism. Meanwhile, much of what would have been mainstream politics until about twenty years ago is labelled as far right. No wonder things are so confused when it comes to politics in 2024...

I dunno, I've never met a single WC kid in my small part of the UK who has or had any time whatsoever for the Greens.

I've met a fair few who really resent being told by posh soup-throwing kids that they shouldn't go on cheap holidays, though.

My impression of the Greens in the UK is that it's a movement for privileged people. Hence their adoption of other stances which bear the hallmark of great economic privilege eg being able to choose your sex.

I don't mean by this that the climate emergency is a privileged fiction because it obviously is not. Just that for whatever reason I've never ecnountered any aspect of the UK Green Party that's been aimed at or espoused by my WC community.

Hmm. Where did you get that list from, or did you just make it up?
Nothing like a bit of them and us stereotyping!

My impression of the Greens in the UK is that it's a movement for privileged people. Hence their adoption of other stances which bear the hallmark of great economic privilege eg being able to choose your sex.

I think that's fairly accurate.

Its funny how all these detrans redditors are somehow not young people using reddit whilst simulateanously are young people detransitioning.

Do you know a lot of teenagers using KF and 4chan?

Well yes this is the other thing, we've lost sight of definitions.

Right and left wing no longer mean what they mean 50 or even 30 years ago.

Same with other words that get thrown around like facist. the Tories aren't facist. Not even the Nazis were facist, they were nationalist and socialist. They differed from Mussolini on loads of policies and ideologies.

So yes an honest political discussion would start by agreeing some definitions. I'm not clever or well read enough to do this. I kind of wich politicans would.

Hmm. Where did you get that list from, or did you just make it up?

It's her opinion. Like some of the unconvincing things you come out with are yours. OALA.

Do you know a lot of teenagers using KF and 4chan?

I doubt they'd share it with me, like I don't suppose the few you know share all their social media habits with you. Are you saying that you don't believe any teenagers do?

Oh, definitely a big thing with the UK Greens. I've never been in a high enough socio-economic bracket to be their target constituency.

The big youth element to their success a few years back is better seen in countries where the Greens are a bigger part of the landscape.

But if you're a young person in Germany now, the Greens are your parents, and the SPD are your grandparents, and they're both in a government that's immiserating the population.

And Alice Weidel is on TikTok.

If you go back a couple of decades the Green demographic was more Tory/Lib Dem swing voters than Labour.

Yes. Stated as fact. Adds as much to the debate as if I were to write a list of my view of "modern alt right conservative". But go on. I will and we will see if it adds to the debate or provokes outrage and accusations that I am a TRA.

The modern alt-right conservative:

• Gender traditionalism and deification of mothers
• censorship of the views of their opponents by banning books and liberal viewpoints from education
• opposition to Arab heritages and Islam
• violence and the threat of violence are acceptable to protect a traditional cause
• the key duty of companies is to make money for shareholders

All conceived in terms of cultural supremacy rather than policy. This is what is passed off as right wing politics in the modern world. In the 20th century this would be regarded as far right and flirting with fascism. Meanwhile what would have been labelled as centrist politics twenty years ago is now far left. No wonder things are so confused when it comes to politics in 2024.

Oh look. The thread has gone meta. Culture wars in action. Let's see if it helps or hinders debate.

The Nazis were not socialist. This is the far right trying to make Nazi-ism palatable.

And in France, Macron is now just about old enough to be your dad, whereas Marion Maréchal (who appears to have dropped the 'Le Pen" part of her surname for everyday use) is the same age as Taylor Swift, and Jordan Bardella is still under 30.

No. Clearly not. I'm saying I think teenagers think forums are for old people and access their information in ways that are unfamiliar to us.

I'm not the person who asserted teens were getting views from 4chan and KF.