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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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20
CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 19:39

IwantToRetire · 12/06/2024 19:27

Without in any way disrespecting contributions to this thread, I sat down to catch up with it, and overwhelming felt I was caught in groundhog day - again.

Is there not a way to carry forward discussion and contributions without getting sent off into a diversion.

Once you see the sign for a diversion you can decide to avoid it as being a detour we dont have time for.

I had wanted to post about how the concept of the culture wars is, if anything, weaponised by the media for no other reason than to get shrieking headlines, which masks what way be significant changes in attitudes. And in this instance what that may mean for women.

And that what is now called the culture wars is another arm of the queer activist strategy to challenge norms, for no other reason than to challenge, with out regard for how those "norms" may in some instances not be norms, but a way of life and attitudes that actually recognises the lived experience of, for example, women.

Edited

Unfortunately on a discussion board you get alternative views.
Maybe a nice blog where you can control the narrative would suit you better? Or TwiX? You can block people and not listen to those people who disagree there.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/06/2024 19:41

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 19:38

And then you are happy to extrapolate that one photo to the "modern Liberal progressive" having a "core belief" that "Violence and and the threat of violence are acceptable for a virtuous cause"?

And you don't see any problem with doing this, while also maintaining that other people have been pushed towards the far right because people wouldn't engage with their points but just applied lazy stereotypes to the person?

It's not one photo though, is it?

It's every Let Women Speak event.

It's JK Rowling's inbox.

It's Rosie Duffield not being able to attend the Labour Party conference due to safety concerns.

The supposedly progressive left has not condemned any of this.

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 19:43

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/06/2024 19:02

If you're not condemning the acts of violence perpetrated by trans activists on a daily basis against women who disagree with them - and in particular if you are a left wing politician happy to pose in front of a placard with the words "decapitate Terfs" on it, I will assume you condone it.

And do you also assume people like JKR condone the far right and Tommy Robinson because they haven't condemned the LWS stewards handing out leaflets and marching at a TR event?

Or is this another example of breathtaking double standards?

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 19:48

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/06/2024 19:41

It's not one photo though, is it?

It's every Let Women Speak event.

It's JK Rowling's inbox.

It's Rosie Duffield not being able to attend the Labour Party conference due to safety concerns.

The supposedly progressive left has not condemned any of this.

So, because on this particular issue, because politicians haven't condemned the behaviour of a group of extremists, you think it's fine to extrapolate to a core belief of all left wing people?

To be fair I haven't seen any right wing politicians "condemning it" either, apart from to score lazy political points.

I haven't seen any politicians condemning the far right marches last week and the anti-muslim chants there.

It's almost like politicians don't want to draw attention to extremist behaviour. I dunno, maybe they think it's socially irresponsible and likely to inflame tensions or something.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/06/2024 20:04

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 19:43

And do you also assume people like JKR condone the far right and Tommy Robinson because they haven't condemned the LWS stewards handing out leaflets and marching at a TR event?

Or is this another example of breathtaking double standards?

Well no, because JKR has got absolutely fuck all to do with the far right, whereas the "progressive left" are constantly banging on about trans people and how important it is for us to all support them because they're the most vulnerable people in society. If you hitch yourself so publicly to that bandwagon and then don't condemn the violent behaviour of some of the members of the movement, I am going to assume you are fine with it.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/06/2024 20:13

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 19:48

So, because on this particular issue, because politicians haven't condemned the behaviour of a group of extremists, you think it's fine to extrapolate to a core belief of all left wing people?

To be fair I haven't seen any right wing politicians "condemning it" either, apart from to score lazy political points.

I haven't seen any politicians condemning the far right marches last week and the anti-muslim chants there.

It's almost like politicians don't want to draw attention to extremist behaviour. I dunno, maybe they think it's socially irresponsible and likely to inflame tensions or something.

Edited

I mean in some cases left wing politicians haven't just failed to condone violent behaviour by trans activists, they've actively endorsed it.

Like Chris Hopkins, New Zealand's Labour prime minister, who praised the angry mob who threatened and assaulted peaceful female protesters at the Let Women Speak event in Auckland and said he'd have joined them if his schedule had allowed.

No doubt you'll dismiss that as irrelevant because it didn't happen in the UK, but it's a particularly flagrant example of the rot that has permeated the political left across the entire English speaking western world.

Note the tumbleweed from the UK Labour party in response to Lloyd Russell Moyle's disgraceful behaviour in parliament too.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2024 20:13

Teenagers/"young people" don't in my experience spend loads of time on those sites. Because they find reading text and forums a boring old person way of getting information.

There are a zillion teenagers on Reddit, a "forum" (which is a boring old person term). Perhaps not the one teenager you know. But still you are harping on this irrelevant point, because it's very obvious you have nothing to say about the substantive point.

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 20:17

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2024 20:13

Teenagers/"young people" don't in my experience spend loads of time on those sites. Because they find reading text and forums a boring old person way of getting information.

There are a zillion teenagers on Reddit, a "forum" (which is a boring old person term). Perhaps not the one teenager you know. But still you are harping on this irrelevant point, because it's very obvious you have nothing to say about the substantive point.

What exactly did you think the substantive point was?

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 20:24

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/06/2024 20:13

I mean in some cases left wing politicians haven't just failed to condone violent behaviour by trans activists, they've actively endorsed it.

Like Chris Hopkins, New Zealand's Labour prime minister, who praised the angry mob who threatened and assaulted peaceful female protesters at the Let Women Speak event in Auckland and said he'd have joined them if his schedule had allowed.

No doubt you'll dismiss that as irrelevant because it didn't happen in the UK, but it's a particularly flagrant example of the rot that has permeated the political left across the entire English speaking western world.

Note the tumbleweed from the UK Labour party in response to Lloyd Russell Moyle's disgraceful behaviour in parliament too.

OK.
I don't think you can make sweeping generalisations about "the left" based on the behaviour of some politicians. And I think if people were make sweeping generalisations about "the right" based on the behaviour of some politicians posters would be very upset and claiming this is how come we got Brexit/Farage/Tommy Robinson.

This to me is what culture wars mean. This behaviour of going into an entrenched "them and us" mentality.

suggestionsplease1 · 12/06/2024 20:24

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 16:48

Honestly. Hilarious.

Compare and contrast:

PP: Racial essentialism is the basis of critical race theory. The majority of American race theory is based on the notion that races are inherently distinct, have discrete interests, and that the key defining point of an individual is that individual's race.

Me:
Gender traditionalism is the basis of the gender critical movement. The majority of the GC movement is based on the notion that sexes are inherently distinct, have discrete interests, and that the key defining point of an individual is that individual's sex.

Both are rubbish. Mine is a parody to make the point that this board accepts any old rubbish about "the left" but not the exact same about "the right". You've now wasted a huge amount of time arguing with that parody.

I'm finding it bizarre how many people haven't grasped your point on this 😂.

I mean I'm not really a fan of the positions of many on this board but there's clearly intelligent people at times, but this has gone completely over heads 😂

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2024 20:25

I think I'm not going to engage further on this issue Cassie. I've got better things to do with my time.

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 20:26

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2024 20:25

I think I'm not going to engage further on this issue Cassie. I've got better things to do with my time.

AKA "I have argued so much even I can't remember what the substantive point was" 😂

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2024 20:28

I know what the point is, I CBA to argue with you about it.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/06/2024 20:28

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 20:24

OK.
I don't think you can make sweeping generalisations about "the left" based on the behaviour of some politicians. And I think if people were make sweeping generalisations about "the right" based on the behaviour of some politicians posters would be very upset and claiming this is how come we got Brexit/Farage/Tommy Robinson.

This to me is what culture wars mean. This behaviour of going into an entrenched "them and us" mentality.

But essentially all politicians on the left, with a few honourable exceptions such as Rosie Duffield who is treated abominably by the rest of the left, have adopted the same position. Which is that trans women are women, even if that means the word no longer has any meaning, because they want to be, that if you think otherwise you are a horrible bigot, and women's consent is irrelevant.

So we can indeed tar them with the same brush because they've made it very clear which side they are on. They are on the side of the people who punch old ladies at women's rights demonstrations and send rape threats to JK Rowling.

PeppercornMill · 12/06/2024 20:29

Saying North London or Metropolitan Elite is now anti-Semitic?!?

So criticising Corbyn is now anti-Semitic?!?

It's the same old story from trans activists and the like. They just throw stuff back at you. Don't like Corbyn and his anti-Semitism? It's because you're an anti-Semite, don't like trans women in women's spaces? It's because you a misogynist!

Everyone knows that North London Metropolitan elite refers to those wealthy people who dictate to everyone else (Labour focusing on issues close to wealth middle classes in Islington, than to former mining communities etc).

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2024 20:31

Saying North London or Metropolitan Elite is now anti-Semitic?!?

So criticising Corbyn is now anti-Semitic?!?

It's the same old story from trans activists and the like. They just throw stuff back at you. Don't like Corbyn and his anti-Semitism? It's because you're an anti-Semite, don't like trans women in women's spaces? It's because you a misogynist!

Everyone knows that North London Metropolitan elite refers to those wealthy people who dictate to everyone else (Labour focusing on issues close to wealth middle classes in Islington, than to former mining communities etc).

Yes, everyone knows that, even the disingenuous among us.

suggestionsplease1 · 12/06/2024 20:32

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/06/2024 20:28

But essentially all politicians on the left, with a few honourable exceptions such as Rosie Duffield who is treated abominably by the rest of the left, have adopted the same position. Which is that trans women are women, even if that means the word no longer has any meaning, because they want to be, that if you think otherwise you are a horrible bigot, and women's consent is irrelevant.

So we can indeed tar them with the same brush because they've made it very clear which side they are on. They are on the side of the people who punch old ladies at women's rights demonstrations and send rape threats to JK Rowling.

So, in parallel, gender critical feminists are presumably on the side of those who murder trans people out of hate?

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 20:34

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/06/2024 20:28

But essentially all politicians on the left, with a few honourable exceptions such as Rosie Duffield who is treated abominably by the rest of the left, have adopted the same position. Which is that trans women are women, even if that means the word no longer has any meaning, because they want to be, that if you think otherwise you are a horrible bigot, and women's consent is irrelevant.

So we can indeed tar them with the same brush because they've made it very clear which side they are on. They are on the side of the people who punch old ladies at women's rights demonstrations and send rape threats to JK Rowling.

And if I said because various Conservative and Reform politicians had made ignorant remarks about Muslims and not condemned far right marches where there were anti-muslim chants, and therefore that meant all right wingers had a core belief of islamophobia, that would be OK?

How about if I said right wingers were all forced birthers because some right wing politicians are trying to restrict abortion rights?

Or if I said all right wingers were homophobic because some are campaigning to remove pride flags from the classroom?

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 20:35

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2024 20:31

Saying North London or Metropolitan Elite is now anti-Semitic?!?

So criticising Corbyn is now anti-Semitic?!?

It's the same old story from trans activists and the like. They just throw stuff back at you. Don't like Corbyn and his anti-Semitism? It's because you're an anti-Semite, don't like trans women in women's spaces? It's because you a misogynist!

Everyone knows that North London Metropolitan elite refers to those wealthy people who dictate to everyone else (Labour focusing on issues close to wealth middle classes in Islington, than to former mining communities etc).

Yes, everyone knows that, even the disingenuous among us.

Take it up with the Jewish News
https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/jlm-lambasts-priti-patel-for-north-london-metropolitan-liberal-elite-comment/

JLM lambasts Priti Patel for ‘North London metropolitan liberal elite’ comment

The Jewish Labour Movement said: 'The meanings and associations behind language matters, especially in the current political climate'

https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/jlm-lambasts-priti-patel-for-north-london-metropolitan-liberal-elite-comment

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2024 20:36

So, in parallel, gender critical feminists are presumably on the side of those who murder trans people out of hate?

Isn't that what TRAs tend to think anyway?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/06/2024 20:37

suggestionsplease1 · 12/06/2024 20:32

So, in parallel, gender critical feminists are presumably on the side of those who murder trans people out of hate?

Only in the sense that vegetarians are on the same side as Hitler.

Not believing that humans can change sex isn't a particularly remarkable thing to have in common and doesn't make you part of the same political movement.

Believing in magic genders, on the other hand, is a pretty batshit thing and puts you in a category of people who share that belief.

Like how flat earthers are a distinct group but people who believe the earth is spherical are not.

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 20:38

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/06/2024 20:37

Only in the sense that vegetarians are on the same side as Hitler.

Not believing that humans can change sex isn't a particularly remarkable thing to have in common and doesn't make you part of the same political movement.

Believing in magic genders, on the other hand, is a pretty batshit thing and puts you in a category of people who share that belief.

Like how flat earthers are a distinct group but people who believe the earth is spherical are not.

😂
So yet again, reasonable to generalise about the left, but not the right.
And KS is making up the culture wars thing 😂

RedToothBrush · 12/06/2024 20:40

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 20:26

AKA "I have argued so much even I can't remember what the substantive point was" 😂

No.

Just pointless to argue with someone who can't form a coherent sentence never mind argument.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/06/2024 20:40

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 20:34

And if I said because various Conservative and Reform politicians had made ignorant remarks about Muslims and not condemned far right marches where there were anti-muslim chants, and therefore that meant all right wingers had a core belief of islamophobia, that would be OK?

How about if I said right wingers were all forced birthers because some right wing politicians are trying to restrict abortion rights?

Or if I said all right wingers were homophobic because some are campaigning to remove pride flags from the classroom?

You'd really have to define what you meant by "right wingers" for a start.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/06/2024 20:42

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 20:38

😂
So yet again, reasonable to generalise about the left, but not the right.
And KS is making up the culture wars thing 😂

How am I generalising? The left are very clear about their beliefs around gender.

Even Rosie Duffield hasn't said "it's all a load of made up rubbish". Just some pretty mild stuff about how women also have human rights really. And even that has been enough to see her become persona non grata, unable to attend her own party conference and threatened with deselection.

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