To those who consider prostitution rape...

[Ahsoka2001]

I recently found some old MN threads where posters debated whether a man who has sex with a prostitute commits rape. Those in favour argued that the woman's consent is not freely given - it is conditional on the basis money is exchanged and consent cannot be bought -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2791778-does-having-sex-with-a-prostitute-constitute-rape

To those who agree with this position, I'm wondering where exactly do we draw the line? If all prostitution is rape, then -

a) What about female pornstars? They only have sex on camera on the condition that they are paid for the shoot. Does this mean every male pornstar in history is a rapist because the woman's consent was bought and not freely given?

b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses? If a female Hollywood star only consents to a sex scene on the condition of receiving a paycheck for the role, does that mean they're being sexually assaulted when they perform a scene in which they're kissed/touched sexually? Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?

...Surely not! But again, if all prostitution automatically equals rape, then how and where do we draw the line?

Assuming they’re an adult and fully capable of consenting (ie not under the influence of drugs or mentally ill etc

See I would say that bit is quite an assumption.

Does the different way to earn cash earn at least £200 per hour? That's the going rate for escorts in Britain. How does that compare to a min wage job?

In my opinion, rape can include having sex with someone who you know doesn’t want to have sex with you. If the sex worker is having to be paid, I’d argue that proves they don’t want the sex. So the one have sex with the sex worker is raping them.

I realise this is not necessarily the legal definition, and that people will disagree. But that is how I feel, in the simplest terms.

Let's ignore that this isnt even in the same universe as most women involved in prostitution.

Question for you OP, seeing as the man has no idea if the woman is freely giving consent or not, and he’s willing to ‘take the risk’, does that not make him a rapist anyway, based on his own actions/morals?

This is an extremely good point/question.

Does the different way to earn cash earn at least £200 per hour? That's the going rate for escorts in Britain. How does that compare to a min wage job?

I'm sure there's plenty of ways to do that if you're prepared to risk death, injury, infectious diseases and exchange body fluids with people, with no insurance, pension, holiday or other benefits

Is that what the going rate for a trafficked teenager is? How much of that £200 an hour ends up in her bank account?

There are other jobs that are extremely personally dangerous and can expose people to serious risk of disease.

And actresses aren't necessarily able to refuse nude or sex scenes and keep their job. They could have a standard clause to that effect in a contract, but that would mean there were jobs that would not be available to them. This is especially true for younger actresses trying to establish themselves.

The one area that I think is quite different is the potential for pregnancy and a child. However, while there could be a strong argument that would make legal prostitutions socially undesirable, and even immoral because of the position that would put the child in, I can't see why it would impact consent as such.

Does some women's right to have sex (happily and consensually) for money trump the right of millions of women and girls to not be trafficked, abused ,beaten and raped?

Oh not the 'happy hooker' trope. Please.

Most sex workers have absolutely no choice about it. They're trafficked and coerced and controlled by pimps.

If busty Bev up the road wants to cheer up sad, dirty gits who have never had a girlfriend by giving them hand jobs in her bungalow then I guess she can crack on. But she also does not get to speak for all the thousands and thousands of exploited women who have no voice and no choice.

Regards the "escorts" and their remuneration, is the figure quoted net, or is that the amount before the"agency" take their cut?

I think a lot of these posts are really not relevant to the basic question.

There is a difference between saying prostitution is bad for women involved, or bad for society, or often has a lot of surrounding circumstances that are dodgy and mean the people involved aren't really in a good place to make decisions, or even that sex for money Is undignified or isn't an appropriate use of sexuality, which is the traditional religious position - and saying that because of these kinds of circumstances, it is not possible to consent.

There are many other kinds of situations in life that mean people don't have perfect circumstances for free consent, where they are poor and having to do dangerous work, or where there seem to be a lot of people involved who have social or psychological issues, and so on, but we don't say that means they can't consent.

In fact there are plenty of men women who are having casual sexual relationships in dangerous conditions with strangers, with drugs and booze, for extremely transactional reasons, and we don't say they can't consent. Although there was a time when we would have looked askance at women in particular behaving that way, and a big part of the reason for that was the problematic nature of the situation.

I sometimes think that modern sexual ethics is so thin and wanting that consent is the only lens it has for considering whether certain sexual encounters are good or not. So all unhealthy or destructive sex becomes rape.

I don’t really have a firm position, beyond this question: Why is the bar for rape so incredibly low? I am inclined to argue from asking where is there harm? And work back from there.

I was in the last generation to really have an analogue childhood and was also blessed with part of my early adulthood in the late 90s. For all its faults it felt like I came into adulthood where female sexuality was starting to be centred. In a way that has totally regressed now.

Sex wasn’t about merely about obtaining consent, female pleasure was considered very important in a way it seemingly isn’t now. There would have been something shameful about using prostitutes, whereas everything is about embracing kinks, which we mustn’t shame anymore even if women are fucking dying in bdsm scenarios gone wrong.

I think the whole conversation surrounding sex needs a proper cultural going over to be honest. We can horsetrade over definitions of whether prostitution and pornography violates consent, but maybe the question is simply is it violating? More clearly articulates the problem.

£200 an hour?! I must go and find the woman that was offering blow jobs for £10 in the takeaway the other day that she is seriously underpaid, although I suppose if she managed to do 20 in one hour she’d be golden./s

Prostitution is just wrong, and it doesn’t surprise me that the people who advocate for prostitution are also 99% of the time the same people that advocate for men in women’s spaces and also think there’s nothing wrong with surrogacy. Just shilling for men, that really is not feminism by any stretch of the imagination.

Interesting read.
Porn, prostitution and the public understanding of consent | Nordic Model Now!

Sex scenes in films don't involve sex. There is no comparison with either porn or prostitution. That argument is most commonly made by men trying to sanitise porn to relieve the guilt they feel about watching it.

Hey dervel, not seen you on here in ages! Thought you had left! Great to see you back

Sex wasn’t about merely about obtaining consent, female pleasure was considered very important in a way it seemingly isn’t now.

As someone who was a teen/young adult in the 90s I completely agree. I'm not sure where it went wrong but as a mother of teens now sex and healthy sexuality appears to be more complicated due to porn and weird expectations about what's "normal".

Does the different way to earn cash earn at least £200 per hour? That's the going rate for escorts in Britain.

I think the exploited and trafficked women in the Managed Zone in Leeds getting a fiver a hand job missed that particular memo.

I’m getting more and more concerned about the pushing of consent as the be-all-and-end-all of moral arguments.
It’s ok to strangle a woman during sexual intercourse because she has consented? No it fucking isn’t. No one should be strangling anyone.
Someone consenting to a person carrying out an immoral act does not make that act suddenly moral.
Using strangers for sexual gratification is immoral.

(I’m not meaning the idea of morality here as a religious thing. It’s just the best word for the job)

Awww thank you for the welcome back! The issues we have talked about here are still very important to me.

I don't think it's rape, but that doesn't mean I think it's "right". Why does it have to be classified as "rape"? I think it's a pretty pointless discussion to be honest.

The pornstars and movie stars examples are a bit silly as the males participating are also doing it because they're being paid. So why aren't they considered to be automatically being sexually assaulted because they can't provide their consent?

I like the cup of tea analogy that gets used to help teens understand consent to sex. We should be teaching young people about enthusiastic consent - actually saying 'yes, please' to forms of sex.

I will teach my children that consent must be freely given. It cannot be sold, or coerced or obtained by manipulation or trickery. I will teach them that the Happy Hooker is a myth, and that pornography is damaging on a multitude of levels.

I could forgive my husband having an affair if he and the other person entered into it freely. I could never, ever, forgive him purchasing a person's body to use for his own gratification.

Also, OP Hollywood actors don't actually have sex. They also don't beat each other up or murder each other or steal the crown jewels.

Consent is a chimera if there is an imbalance of social, political, economic, or physical power.

If I employed contractors to work on my property and they turned up with a bunch of cowed non-English speaking workers who looked as if they'd been kept manacled in a garden shed, I wouldn't be happy.

Yet men are apparently happy to have sex with women who they know very well may be trafficked sex-slaves. That's rape.

You only have to read the reviews written by johns to see how many of them are happy to have sex with a woman who is not enthusiastic.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13149175.exposing-invisible-men-rate-sex-workers-online/

You’re right. It’s a very valid argument re the males are also being paid.