Managers comment to me at work

[HandAndFootInMouth]

Not sure if this is the right place for this, but here goes.

I work with a couple of teens who identify as the opposite sex. One is a bit laid back about it all, but the other seems to take it very seriously. The second identifies as a boy and wants to be called he/ they. I’ve already been told by them that they dislike certain people because they misgender them. I’m struggling because I work closely with this person and I’m slipping up when caught off guard. I try to refer to them by their name, but often come out with she and her if I’m not concentrating.

I’ve worked with others identifying as the opposite sex but found it easier not to slip up, as they presented themselves in the opposite way whereas this person is not actually doing that. Basically she looks like a girl, and wants me to use he. I’m not doing it deliberately. I think I’m on course for a bollocking. Also, they identify as he, but use ladies toilets.

My issue is that I was talking to my manager and he said to me, “the problem is, your generation grew up in different times, and you never saw all this, so it’s hard for you to accept”. I felt really annoyed by this because it was like when you hear people saying older people are racist because they didn’t grow up around other cultures, they can’t help their ignorance.

That’s how it feels. I’m a middle age woman, I can’t help my ignorance over non binary etc.

I’d love a come back to my manager.

I try to keep my views out of work. I’m not paid to bring in my opinions. But, bloody hell, I’m walking on eggshells here.

“This generation think they were the first to play about with gender role when David Bowie was indulging in performative gender-bending as a part of his early musical personas (as were other musicians). Maybe worth mentioning to your boss before calling out his ageism.”

I assume this is tongue in cheek, but lord, don’t use the phrase “gender bending”

In any event: Bowie, Lennox, Adam Ant, Prince etc played with appearance/androgyny. None of them identified as the opposite sex so I don’t think they are good parallels for your work discussion.

Perhaps they had the sense to realise you can't change sex but you can subvert gender stereotypes. Gender bending is a fair description, and if workmate who refers to themselves as 'he' is still using the ladies loo then they realise that too deep down.

“Gender bending is a fair description,”

Given OP is (presumably) not looking to stoke the flames at work, it would be a foolish phrase to use.

Gender bending was a term used back then, anyone who was around in the 70s/80s would be aware of it being used to describe those artists.

It's difficult, because you're clearly being asked to take part in what is effectively a fantasy (not sexual, just separate from reality). However, saying that you forgot might not be considered a worthy excuse as we wouldn't tolerate an older person using racial descriptors at work that are now considered offensive.

Steer clear of pro nouns
just use names

Hardly walking on egg shells. You’re being unnecessarily dramatic.

If you’re truly trying to use the right pro nouns then nothing will come of it but are you being honest there?

This.

Until sanity returns or the next social contagion comes along.

I do think the whole gender thing is nonsense and I'm actually glad I work in the construction sector where all this nonsense is yet to permeate.

However, I also feel it's a bit difficult to complain that we're being asked to ignore reality, because we have to do that in many instances already. Like, you can't really say "yes, you need to speak to Wendy. She's the fat one that sits by the printer".

Hey. Wendy is not fat, she's well nourished, or big boned, or undertall., or possibly identifying as a 6ft blonde.

Yes, I know.

But other terms were used in the 70s/80s which are homophobic slurs now. One starts with f and another with p. And the third starts with B and is in the phrase we are discussing.

Hence my suggestion that op avoids it if she is trying not to inflame the situation.

Start identifying as astro gender which means your gender changes depending on the configuration of the night sky (seriously, look it up, it'll be next to clown gender) and insist on ever changing pronouns ;-)

Alternatively, Sex Matters have produced a handy guide: https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/pronouns/#header-nav Being GC is a protected belief.

Good luck with the pamper baby at work.

Age is a protected characteristic. There is no hierarchy of protected characteristics so gender reassignment does not trump sex or age.

Your beliefs are protected after the Forstater judgement.

Oh do fuck off. You grew up with the new romantics / punks, gender bending and androgynous ladies and men in popular culture.

This new generation hasn't had that, we live in ultra conservative times where all girls seem required to have mermaid hair and spend a fortune on nails, brows and lashes.

Absolutely nutty from your manager. Telling the untruth will ALWAYS seem wrong, no matter what era.

I'm not sure I'm sold on this idea that the clothes you wear never mean anything, never communicate anything fixed.
It verges towards the argument that the words "stupid idiot" are just a series of syllables anyway, so if I direct them towards you it doesn't mean anything. And if we were in 7th century Persia that series of syllables would mean something completely different, so stop getting so hung up on it.
The situation @Grammarnut describes above I think saying "piss of with your little girl fetish" might be well and truly called for. OTOH might be he just has absolutely no sense of style or how things look to others, I guess.
I haven't come to a firm conclusion on what I think about men in dresses, but it's not cut and dried for me.
Also, it turns out that what was working well for Izzard in the 90s was making other people feel uncomfortable. The more comfortable we got with him wearing skirts and make-up the further he had to push things.

There's a staple piece of Mumsnet advice, which is "smile and nod". I can't help thinking that might be the best solution here. He's your manager, after all - is it wise to pick a fight with him?

I agree. Mind, my late DH wore nail varnish (toes and fingers) on occasion, and went to fancy dress once as a female werewolf. He also wore kaftans (dresses from our pov?), floppy hats, lacy shirts and velvet jackets. He never thought he was anything other than a man - a man with a taste for flamboyant clothes and eyecatching nailwear. Fine. But pinafores and Alice bands? I am not so sure that isn't a problem. And the more it is accepted the more our boundaries are pushed - I did not see which lavatories the man in an Alice band used.

"Gender bender" means to bend gender, i.e. to play around with gender. The derogatory term used in the UK for homosexual men isn't anything to do with it (it's the same word, yes, but totally different meaning and context).

Thanks, interesting

I’m going to leave the thread now

The only point I was making was to posters who seemed to want op to be gung ho with her manager and language at work which could risk making things worse.

But pinafores and Alice bands? I am not so sure that isn't a problem.

An Alice band isn't so different from the things football players wear to stop hair going into their eyes.

That's disingenuous. Footballers don't wear a pinafore/white knee socks/kids' Mary Janes (not on the pitch anyway, who knows in their personal lives).