Managers comment to me at work

[HandAndFootInMouth]

Not sure if this is the right place for this, but here goes.

I work with a couple of teens who identify as the opposite sex. One is a bit laid back about it all, but the other seems to take it very seriously. The second identifies as a boy and wants to be called he/ they. I’ve already been told by them that they dislike certain people because they misgender them. I’m struggling because I work closely with this person and I’m slipping up when caught off guard. I try to refer to them by their name, but often come out with she and her if I’m not concentrating.

I’ve worked with others identifying as the opposite sex but found it easier not to slip up, as they presented themselves in the opposite way whereas this person is not actually doing that. Basically she looks like a girl, and wants me to use he. I’m not doing it deliberately. I think I’m on course for a bollocking. Also, they identify as he, but use ladies toilets.

My issue is that I was talking to my manager and he said to me, “the problem is, your generation grew up in different times, and you never saw all this, so it’s hard for you to accept”. I felt really annoyed by this because it was like when you hear people saying older people are racist because they didn’t grow up around other cultures, they can’t help their ignorance.

That’s how it feels. I’m a middle age woman, I can’t help my ignorance over non binary etc.

I’d love a come back to my manager.

I try to keep my views out of work. I’m not paid to bring in my opinions. But, bloody hell, I’m walking on eggshells here.

Yep
I went to school with a girl who wore the boys uniform, had her hair cut in a "boys" style and spent her time playing football and used a boys shortening of her name
My mum thought she was a boy because she presented as one

But she used the female toilets and it was a case of "yeah she's a girl but she prefers to wear boys stuff" and was referred to as she/female

There was no bullying or anything it was just "well that's who she is and we don't really care"

Doesn't matter if there's a policy or not (though still worth checking) - it's a protected characteristic under the 2010 Equality Act.

Gender critical views are protected by law.

It is impossible to change sex. Gender is a social construct, it varies with different societies.

People can identify as any gender they want but you do not have to believe them.

You are doing your best to be kind but you will identify reality occasionally.

This is a really insightful point. I hadn’t thought about this before, but it makes a lot of sense (as an explanation - obvious sod all sense as an outlook on life). Thank you - and to the later poster who couched it in terms of “men identify as the age of the women they fancy”.

Well it absolutely is related to your age. It’s very difficult to get to the age of fifty as a woman and not be aware that people intrinsically respond to you according to your sex, not your personal identity preference.

I recall watching a season of Survivor where there was a non-binary identifying woman. The men all ganged up to get the women evicted. To no one’s surprise, the non-binary person was grouped with the women (because she was one!) Pointing this out to my kids helped them see what a pointless charade all this identity nonsense is. People can try to police peoples speech, but their underlying thought processes will always reflect reality. No one will ever cease to be the sex they were born.

No idea how to deal with your manager, sadly.

I have a friend, F, whose DC has gone from “she” (actual born sex) to “they” to “he” pronouns over the course of the teen years.

F is very trans supporting and has a number of trans friends who she agrees are their identified sex, even before her experience with her DC. F handled “she” to “they” fine but F really struggles to remember to say “he” - and F is around her DC a lot.

The “patterns of the world” brain is deeper and quicker than the thinking brain, and it’s difficult to override for everyone. No need for his sanctimony! I’m damn sure that manager’s brain would rather your born-female coworker was walking behind him on a dark isolated street than a born male one!

Please don't do this. She would be SO vulnerable if she started using male amenities, and I think it would be incredibly cruel to let her know you'd think her more genuine or take her more seriously, if she used them.
Yes, she's being annoying, and likely enjoying manipulating people senior to her. But it would still be throwing her to the wolves to do anything that would increse the likelihood of her using male amenities.

i agree with pp about the toilets - she is a woman, so the laidies toilets are completely appropriat

Because feminism means looking out for all women, even the ones we don't agree with? I don't think that brief is universal anymore, divide and conquer seems to be the order of the day.

'they' might get a bit of a wake up call to the reality of living in a sexed, (not gendered), body. For most of us it's been a hard lesson and we don't like being thrown under the trans bus in the name of that 'feminine' quality of 'kindness'.

You should email the Free Speech Union pronto. They’re very good and they will advise you, they’ll also have your back

I was thinking that she would realise she was not male, tbh. At a uni event yesterday, which had a TiM wearing a denim pinafore and an Alice band etc. He looked silly and everyone 'didn't notice' - the numerous middle-aged women around him ought to have made clear how inappropriate his clothing was for a middle-aged 'woman'. Also, a TiF, who looked utterly vulnerable, with a fuzz of stubble and frail physique. As long as we play the game such people - and their families, the TiM had children - suffer.

I would just say this!

Yes, but no one is obliged to pander to their delusions. I wouldn’t be supporting a man my age who wants to pretend he’s 10 years younger. I’d continue ye to refer to him as ‘our generation’. He can be as appalled as he likes that he’s my age.

“the numerous middle-aged women around him ought to have made clear how inappropriate his clothing was for a middle-aged 'woman'.”

No they shouldn’t. If anyone wants to wear a denim pinafore and Alice band, of any gender or age, crack on. If clothes were universal then it might actually help GNC folks. I’d rather anyone felt they could wear a dress then they felt they needed to take hormones when all they really wanted to do was wear a dress.

Before Eddie Izzard became Susie, he was a bloke in a dress with the odd bit of eyeliner and male pronouns. It worked well, IMO.

And most of us saw that as relatively harmless until the boundaries were pushed a little further and safe spaces and sports were 'fair game'.

Wear what you like, people will make their own assumptions based on your chosen appearance and will react accordingly.

It was entirely inappropriate - would have looked silly on a 25 year old. Yes, wear what you want but don't get upset if people tell you its inappropriate - because sometimes it is. He was dressed almost as a very young girl, which is worrying.
Besides, surely he wanted to look attractive? And he failed.

So he was cosplaying St Trinian's, yikes.

Yes - “Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four" really hit home. I wondered how some children would be able to discuss this in the light of their beliefs and behaviour.

“The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. His heart sank as he thought of the enormous power arrayed against him, the ease with which any Party intellectual would overthrow him in debate, the subtle arguments which he would not be able to understand, much less answer. And yet he was in the right! They were wrong and he was right.”

George Orwell, 1984

You are being asked to participate in a lie and deny reality. Your reaction is healthy. Age has nothing to do with it.

My son has just read 1984, but he's 16 and captured and would argue passionately against me if I tried to draw parallels.
He loves me but thinks I'm narrow minded because I think hating your body needs to be explored psychologically and that medication and surgery are not the promise of happiness that some social media accounts would have him believe.

I wonder what he'd make of The Rachel Divide on Netflix. Might be worth watching that and saying absolutely nothing throughout!

You cannot reason someone out of a view they weren’t reasoned into.

He’s 16 and probably in need of something to rebel against. The more you try, the more he rebels.

Teenagers have always rebelled and pushed boundaries. Many Western parents try to be their kids’ friends (it’s not targeted against you, just a general observation) instead of authority figures. This means more behaviours once unacceptable are allowed today and there’s less to rebel against, so now they’re rebelling against their own bodies and biology.

Teenage rebellion is a necessity to develop a sense of self. If you don’t give them anything to rebel against, they will find something.

Unless he wants to go on puberty blockers or chop his privates off, politely ignore and you should see his fervour disappear.

Also, less Internet would probably be good.

True. He's happy in his skin, but I suspect a couple of his female friends are not (adolescence is a trying time) and he's very protective of them.

When COVID isolated everyone the internet was a lifesaver in terms of schoolwork and social contact, online life became the norm and still is for many teenagers.
Add to that parents who work long hours, full-time, it's easy to become detached. He doesn't worry me too much, no more than the usual parental angst.

Had not clocked this, but yes, he was.

Watch the end of Eurovision where Graham Norton was hyper and excited about the winner and misgended Nemo about 20 times! that made me chuckle, especially as the song is about identifying as non binary.

As for the male identifying female - until they start using the male toilets I would not worry too much about it. This generation think they were the first to play about with gender role when David Bowie was indulging in performative gender-bending as a part of his early musical personas (as were other musicians). Maybe worth mentioning to your boss before calling out his ageism.