Caitlin Moran discusses her absence from the trans debates

[MotherEarthisaTerf]

20 mins and 30 seconds in

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001zlw2?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Surely we have room in feminism for different types of feminist, do we really want to have an "all or nothing," membership rule that comes hand in hand with sacrificing your livelihood. Anyone who watched what happened to Germain Greer can justify avoiding this issue, JKR can afford to make a stand (and is incredible) but most people need their jobs, including CM.

She is a writer who is essentially a diarist, rather than a population level feminist academic. She doesn't claim to present wider truths, but instead presents herself as very much a woman despite the idea women should be well groomed/ meek/ not very sexual/ not talk about bodily functions/ well presented etc. I think it is fine that she breaks down walls and stereotypes from inside, room for everyone.

Unless she is actively pushing for TW to be included in all things women, I think we let her be, there are enough people actually doing harm to not pick on people who we don't think are doing enough good.

Ffs, I've wandered onto the wrong thread, thought this was Zoe Williams!

Don't mind me, I'll see myself out, thanks, cheers, sorry, bye.

Moran has always been an annoying and rather immature performative "feminist " and very much in the "I'm mad me" mould as a PP has observed. I lost patience with her a long time ago.

i feel like the niche she’s in is being a popular feminist for people who don’t know much about feminism, and young women/girls, and her work is about being amusing or a bit comedy-shocking, not actual clear analysis like Suzanne Moore or Hadley freeman.

However she’s better than someone like Zoe Williams who apparently can’t think things through at all. I think she is intelligent and does get it, and to be fair I can understand her not wanting the abuse. It’s frustrating but it is her choice.

I have heard CM say things that suggest she does lack confidence and is slightly uncomfortable with public performance (which I have every sympathy with) - I remember her saying she couldn’t go on comedy panel shows because it was too hard for women and they were male-dominated. It wasn’t true IMO - loads of women were clearly doing them brilliantly and it came across quite un-feminist sounding, like women are delicate flowers who can’t compete. But if she’d just said “it’s not my scene, I don’t really like performing on camera and thinking on the hop” I’d respect that.

I don’t like the “I’m mad me” mugging but I know it can be the result of being shy and feeling awkward when a camera is on you.

I remember nick robinson’s political thinking with Paris Lees years ago and he was right on it even back then. He pursued PL right into a corner. I think the thing with NR whatever you think of his politics etc, is that he’s a very clear analytical thinker and can’t tolerate things not adding up, so he fillets woolly thinking and illogical statements like a kipper. He’s probably not feminists’ top ally, he just can’t stand nonsense.

It's understandable she would remain quiet, but very disappointing. I believe she appeals to younger women and her silent fence sitting propagates the whole situation.

It is easier for men to speak out, for some reason ( which I would imagine is clear misogynist) them speaking the truth seems much more acceptable than females doing it.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3270344-Paris-Lees-interviewed-by-Nick-Robinson-on-Radio-4-now-on

Yes, I think that this may be a factor.

I used to love CM's columns in The Times, she writes so well. But got bored with the topics she chose to concentrate on, and really fed up with her writing about her childhood.

This.
I've never been a fan of CM, but it is hypocritical for a BBC podcast to ask about this.

Surely we have room in feminism for different types of feminist, do we really want to have an "all or nothing," membership rule that comes hand in hand with sacrificing your livelihood?

That. We're individuals with different lives, experiences, commitments and family concerns. If we all stick to the same script we'd be every bit a cult.

Let's face it, with all respect to her, JKR can afford to risk her professional life. She never needs to earn another penny.
There are all kinds of reasons why others in public life may not feel able to take the same risk. That's not necessarily cowardice. That could simply be putting your family first.
We can express ourselves without our families getting the fallout that the kids of those in the media have to endure, or risking the roof over our heads.

I did think it is rich for a bbc podcast to ask why she hasn't commented when the bbc have spent the last 10 years pretending theres no issue to talk about.

The BBC has, but individuals like Nick Robinson haven't refused to discuss it. Woman's Hour also made strides when Emma Barnett was on.

Exactly.
I just assume if someone isn't trumpeting TWAW (ie almost everyone) then they don't buy into it.

Absolutely this. I can't read any of her stuff - especially as she shills for a Murdoch rag.

I simply don’t recognize this ‘the bbc won’t touch trans’ narrative. The only BBC I consume is radio 4, but there has been loads on there for years.

That Murdoch rag that has been excellent on the rights of women and girls right back to the Rotherham scandal? That rag?

The Times is, in my experience, the most feminist of all the mainstream media.

I simply don’t recognize this ‘the bbc won’t touch trans’ narrative. The only BBC I consume is radio 4, but there has been loads on there for years.

The BBC will absolutely cover trans issues and trans people's stories and views, but very noticeably often fails to address concerns about sex-based rights (for both women and gay people), report on feminist successes in court challenging gender ideology, or harms done to people by affirmative medicine, or have a fair balance between genderists and feminists who question it. It has changed a bit more recently, but generally it's been very one-sided in favour of the ideology and not encouraging clear debate or anyone who wants to look at the facts.

No sorry, I replied thinking I was on a different thread - that’s an edit

My take on CM too, she's not the Fawcett Society. I got a lot out of How to be a Woman, especially the bits about being a scruff.

Let's face it, with all respect to her, JKR can afford to risk her professional life. She never needs to earn another penny.

Financially, she's fine. But because she's so high profile, taking the stance she has done has had other costs - the viciousness of the attacks on her, the death and rape threats for example, must make her fearful for her life. Reputationally, she's had to put up with all sorts of vile stuff being written about her, and she's now treated in some quarters as some kind of pariah. She's lost friendships, if only of the ghastly former child actors in the Harry Potter movies. I still think JKR is one of the bravest women in this movement.

Caitlin Moran is a posh Pick Me and a fake. Not a real feminist. Of course she sat it out, gotta keep those invites to bien pensant media dinner parties haven't we.

This is a woman who exposed her daughter's mental health struggles (eating disorder) in a whole book and serialised it in the papers to make money off of her daughter's struggles. And yet weirdly she now acts as though she hasn't thought there might be a teensy weensy bit of a connection between how social media encourages women to hate their bodies and how social media also encourages women to escape their bodies through transing.

She is a totally unserious person and should sit well out of any debate worth having.

Oh yes and the fact that Moran is depicted in the mainstream media as a feminist, only serves to demonstrate how far mainstream feminism has falled.

Mainstream feminism is the likes of Emma Watson and Caitlin Moran. Goddess give me strength.

Bunch of fools and flibbertigibbets.

Exactly. And all those awful things can happen to the next public figure who speaks up. But who does not have that financial cushion, which like it or not, makes a huge difference.

So I don't think my place to judge sometime for prioritising their family.

I used to read Catlin Moran’s early stuff but lost sight of her in recent years.

I never thought she had much substance really and had emerged from that period in the nineties when the mainstream media was desperately hunting around for fresh voices/personalities. This also coincided with the emergence of reality TV. A few people got very lucky in that period - Ben Fogle springs to mind - and were catapulted into highly successful media careers almost by chance.

She is 49 so still has a lot of career to go. I feel a lot more inclined to give her a pass than Mary Beard, who has a very middle class background, an Oxbridge degree, probably a nice inheritance or two along the way and lifelong experience of critical thinking.

Do you remember when she secretly broke lockdown and visited her mate, then wrote an article saying how easy she found lockdown, and chiding at all the people struggling?
She’s quite the Billy Bullshit.

Yes it must be really worrying for her to potentially lose her job at the gender affirmation mad newspaper The Times…oh no hang on there’s absolutely no risk of that because it’s one of the most supportive of gender critical writers media organisations going 🙄.

And given her day job at the Times would be safe, and in no way would she have to face what Suzanne Moore and Hadley Freeman had to deal with at the Guardian, I can only assume that what she would actually worried about in terms of livelihood is “people might not like me anymore”.

There would be a very real risk that CM would find it harder to get her books published, would stop being invited to events relating to her career, would be abused on social media and would lose friends and possibly alienate family members if she 'came out' as having gender critical views. I wouldn't if I were in her position and I have every sympathy for anyone who keeps quiet because saying what they thought would massively disrupt their lives.