Caitlin Moran discusses her absence from the trans debates

[MotherEarthisaTerf]

20 mins and 30 seconds in

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001zlw2?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

I think the fact that all these kids in their 20s would actually cut off their non-abusive, pretty normal parents over this is just nuts.

I have kids that age, one in particular really doesn't agree with me about this, but she continues to talk to me, her father, her grandparents, etc. As does my other daughter who I think has a little more insight but still is on the "be kind" side of things.

And this business about young women in publishing basically sabotaging the books of women writers they disagree with on this?

How did we get to a place where these young people think this is an ok or appropriate way to behave or interact with people, including family? It's seriously toxic.

Not even that. She got someone else to put up a towel rack and spends an entire column talking about it.

"However, last week, I seemed to enter the same state of powerful, manic inspiration that saw Vincent Van Gogh complete most of his major works in six weeks in Arles — ordering the rack online, then getting someone else to put up the towel rack, with their much better drill".

This is my situation. While my daughter knows my views she would be utterly mortified if I started raising it at family gatherings or posting on social media and I just can't do it. I try to campaign in other ways such as writing to my MP and donating to crowd-funders. I have such admiration for those who do speak out.

@TempestTost it doesn't even need to be overt sabotage - all they need to do, to tank a book, is nothing. Minimum effort for reviews, minimum guidance for the cover, don't make much effort to get it in national press. Justify it by saying no-one was interested and it's probably due to the author's views.

Writing isn't a job that comes with a company pension or benefits. There's no redundancy pay. Writers have to be so careful and nice and never complain about poor treatment. I can't see that Moran is any different. And I would be very shocked if she's making 6 figures from the times TBH.

She will wait till the battle is won and then do a 'Me, I was always gender critical.' She's been a huge disappointment for me and I can't see her in the same way but she was always at the lightweight end of things. It's just irritating that she wasted a platform because she could have used humour to cut through the bs.

The one I find most unforgivable is Margaret Atwood. I cannot square a world in which you can write The Handmaid's Tale and simultaneously say TWAW. It's shameful.

Yes, I can see that.

But I am still wondering, how have we raised a generation that thinks this is the way to do things?

I sometimes think this is actually worse than id pol or gender ideology itself - we have indoctrinated young people, mainly through public schools, to think this way. On the one hand utterly failed to get them to understand issues like freedom of thought, how to think about views that aren't our own, they have no historical sense or ability to step into another worldview and think it through, no real sense of the seat of their own first principles.

And then, we've just taught them that if they step outside certain boxes, they are blasphemous bigots.

They are likely little Maoists who cut off, or even turn in, their own parents for wrongthink. And not even well founded ideas of what counts as wrongthink, it's just the most deeply thoughtless, conservative, thought terminating bs.

I almost think that those who are being quiet are doing a serious disservice to their kids allowing them to believe theirr parents accept this shit. Because if they believe this, they will believe anything. Don't be surprised when they go along with plans for a Quietus program 20 years from now. They need to be shocked out of their smug complacency if such a thing is possible.

She's allowed to stay out of it

She's not allowed to stay out of it while claiming to be a feminist

I lost respect for her due to her silence on this issue and I did previously quite enjoy her writing.

I completely understand the fear women in the public have about speaking out but for someone who has made all their money writing about feminist issues she really had no justification to not mention it.

There are so many issues affecting women that aren't about trans she could also have tackled one of those this week whilst knowing she was deliberately avoiding the subject of WHAT IS A WOMAN.
Pick a country Caitlin and write about women. Pick this country and write something useful about women being affected. I wonder how much she was actually paid for the column this week? They could have gotten a more useful article by asking B&Q how women at home with no DIY skills can put up a towel rack for themselves.

Agreed. This is a massive issue. Here are two university students talking about the impact of the fear of being cancelled while at Oxbridge.It seems we've raised a generation of prim monitors frantically calling out perceived faults and isolating those seen at fault with terrible consequences for individuals.

This is down to parents and educators for failing to intervene and insist that free speech and tolerance of different views is essential in a democratic society. The idea of some of these intolerant 20 year olds heading for responsibility is terrifying. They're so incapable of managing basic human interactions how on earth will they manage in the workplace and society in general?

www.thetimes.com/uk/education/article/i-lived-in-fear-of-being-cancelled-as-an-oxbridge-student-we-all-did-37z8rhtlf

Yes.
I home educated when my older kids were young, and tbh I wish I could have carried on doing so, because what I have observed in their education is not heartening.

Things like debates where kids participated in both sides of a subject that was really contentious - this did not happen. But on the other hand, there were huge amounts of time invested in identity based stuff. Lot's of talk of causing "harms" by saying mean stuff. Lots of discussion of mental health fragility.

I was going to say something similar; I have children in their twenties and we disagree politically and culturally on lots of things. And yet we maintain a good relationship.
They've been brought up with healthy debate and exposed to differing opinions.

When in history have we ever had a generation of adults afraid to speak the truth because their children would cut them off for it?? Maybe examples of religious zealotry?

Something has gone terribly wrong with child rearing and the culture that we've reached a point where it's normal for young people to have such black and white thinking they'll cut off their parents over a difference of opinion.

Something much deeper than the trans issue is wrong here.

"I almost think that those who are being quiet are doing a serious disservice to their kids allowing them to believe theirr parents accept this shit. Because if they believe this, they will believe anything. Don't be surprised when they go along with plans for a Quietus program 20 years from now. They need to be shocked out of their smug complacency if such a thing is possible."

I agree with this @TempestTost I cannot imagine lying to my children about my views in order to placate them. Because it would be terrible for them, terrible for our family dynamic and terrible for society to produce young people who expect or need this.

It's such a fundamentally warped idea for many reasons.

On Caitlin Moran I think her schtick is: funny, over sharing, trying to be generous spirited.

I think it could have been hard to get involved in this debate and maintain that approach.

A one off funny article would be possible but then you're in and a target. There's no going back. So maybe best staying out if she wants to continue with her 'I'm a bit of doofus but I'm honest about it' persona.

I also think she's quite fragile and needs to be liked rather than right.

But there are lots of women who when we look back missed the opportunity to stand up for women. You don't know who will be brave until the challenge comes

When in history have we ever had a generation of adults afraid to speak the truth because their children would cut them off for it?? Maybe examples of religious zealotry?

Shades of Arthur Miller’s The Crucible. Adults running scared of children who can sentence them to death with an accusation.

I agree. I am genuinely afraid for the future of this country. Our population is not equipped for the challenges ahead.

I have been unpleasantly surprised by how needy friends teens have been in going off to university. Contacting parents daily about the minor travails of young adulthood.

One girl in my friends sons peer group tragically took her own life so the others parents were then terrified about their own student teens. Remember my lovely friend in near tears as her 19 year old son was stressing her about his computer problems and he was at university some 500 odd miles away. What was mum supposed to do about it? “In our day” (am 50) we rang parents weekly if that and dealt with our shit ourselves.

I'm not offended - I think I understand the point you're making - but this is a bit harsh:

This is down to parents and educators for failing to intervene and insist that free speech and tolerance of different views is essential in a democratic society.

Those parents who do intervene, like me, often lose their kids. My DW and I have pointed out that it's not OK for our son to try to control his parents' words and thoughts, and are being rewarded with near radio silence punctuated with demands that we don't attempt to communicate. So now we're damned if we disobey (as that will prove that we don't respect him), and no doubt damned if we obey (as that will prove that we don't love him).

And this is a young man who does understand critical thinking and is sceptical about all other faith positions.

@MalagaNights

"You don't know who will be brave until the challenge comes."

I feel we need this printed on a t-shirt. Do you mind if I start another thread on this statement? It would be great to list out the bravest people we've seen in this fight.

If she had any sense as a business-minded sort of writer, she'd come out as GC. The GC audience is only ever going to get wider while her views are going to look increasingly tragic and embarrassing.

Her silence means she's probably got a middle-class child in the family playing at oppression, as per usual.

I was never entirely convinced by CM's feminism. I remember reading her articles while sitting on the sofa with a breastfed baby thinking, how TF does this apply to me? What she is banging on about?

Exactly this.
In fact when at university, my DB only rang our parents once in a blue moon. DM was very ill and ended up blue lighted to hospital. I went to his halls to let him know and he never even phoned my DDad to see how his DM was. He was v lazy in those days.

The home school kids are the most heavily TWAW ime. The only parents I know where I live who have come across GI bollocks in their kids education are the home educating ones. One has been banned from attending a home ed camp because they are GC ( the TWAW kids actually held a parade against her and other GC parents). The young home ed kids play games where instead of assigning themselves superhero powers, like normal kids might, they assigned themselves different gender identities. I know a GC home educator who is in a real dilemma as she knows if she is heard speaking privately to her kids about her views by other home educators, she could be ostracised by her home ed community.

Really bloody glad I don't home ed.

The home ed scene is highly politicised.

What's the point of going away to university? To learn things and to really explore all the arguments of subjects.

But also to learn how to be an adult. To learn by making decisions and doing things - if a mistake is made that's a good way to learn properly. Ringing mum & dad for help massively hampers that.

Surely that's basic?

We're often raising a generation of incredibly verbally and intellectually articulate young people who are disproportionately incompetent in practical terms.

On the topic of students being needy...my friend is a university course leader. He estimates 50 to 60% of his time is spent on pastoral care. Not teaching, not leading. Comforting 19 year olds who are overwhelmed by normal coursework. Yes, this bunch dealt with covid lockdown but he only has one word for them - pathetic. He says by 3rd year, they've got the hang of being self motivated and self reliant. He says first year, most of them really struggle to budget or get themselves out to campus on the bus. They don't understand bus timetables, or submission deadlines. But they can order the most complex coffee in Starbucks.