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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Reports Roz Adams successful in her action against Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre

503 replies

LargeSquareRock · 19/05/2024 23:09

https://x.com/journalismseen/status/1792305714595012730?s=46&t=f8U9xaap9RM6pcBCdpsFIA

Excellent news and looking forward to seeing the judgement.

x.com

https://x.com/journalismseen/status/1792305714595012730?s=46&t=f8U9xaap9RM6pcBCdpsFIA

OP posts:
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57
HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 20/05/2024 11:55

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/05/2024 10:18

(Presumably you can't get a GRC to say you're non-binary though I expect someone somewhere has tried.)

Yes, some Californian tried recently in court, it was thrown out.

I remember watching an interview a few years ago with a guy who was the first person in the US to have his passport changed to non-binary. He basically admitted that it was all bullshit, and even suggested that the judge in his case had a trans child and that was why it was allowed. Watching him it was very clear he was AGP, I believe he even admitted that at some point...

BillyBobbs · 20/05/2024 11:56

BillyBobbs · 20/05/2024 09:37

If anyone has edit rights to wikipedia pages or even can just go say somethign on the talk pages of either of these pages, please do, it's the first thing on google that people get
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Rape_Crisis_Centre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mridul_Wadhwa

Bumping this in case anyone has any power, the level of lies in the articles is staggering

AlisonDonut · 20/05/2024 11:56

Thank you. Not yet had time to download the report.

That is excellent , they know that using this word is key.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/new-definition-of-extremism-2024/new-definition-of-extremism-2024

ArabellaScott · 20/05/2024 11:56

Those beliefs are not compatible with tolerance and, in this extreme form, may not even be worthy of protection under the Equality Act.

Wow.

DrBlackbird · 20/05/2024 11:57

Sloejelly · 20/05/2024 09:52

'The version of gender identity theory embraced by ERCC (described by the Tribunal as “dogmatic”, “extreme”, and “hardline”)

This is a mistake by the tribunal - the version of GI theory embraced by ERCC is what GI theory is. It is what LBGT Youth are teaching in Scottish schools, what the various charter marks require adherence to, what the Scottish Greens expelled members for failing to follow, what the TRA protestors threaten women with violence and try to drown out their rallies over. There was nothing particularly extreme about the version displayed by ERCC versus that being pushed across society.

I think it’s interesting that the tribunal judges use the term extremist as it illuminates how the #bekind thinking is surprised (shocked) when faced with the reality of how being kind is playing out in institutions now.

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 20/05/2024 11:59

Sloejelly · 20/05/2024 09:52

'The version of gender identity theory embraced by ERCC (described by the Tribunal as “dogmatic”, “extreme”, and “hardline”)

This is a mistake by the tribunal - the version of GI theory embraced by ERCC is what GI theory is. It is what LBGT Youth are teaching in Scottish schools, what the various charter marks require adherence to, what the Scottish Greens expelled members for failing to follow, what the TRA protestors threaten women with violence and try to drown out their rallies over. There was nothing particularly extreme about the version displayed by ERCC versus that being pushed across society.

I agree, the term extreme suggests there may be a 'gentle' version of gender ideology somewhere which if implemented correctly would work out just fine for everyone - eh no, gender ideology IS extreme, in all it's forms, as it imposes an unreality on everyone and forces us into a position of having to lie or be punished. There is no compromise in GI.

lordloveadog · 20/05/2024 12:00

A thousand thanks to Roz Adams and her team for taking this case. She must have had an awful few years and I hope she's feeling a great deal of relief today at having her sense and goodwill recognized.

Such a crush on Naomi Cunningham! She put a lot of effort into showing how utterly nutty the beliefs of the ERCC staff are during the tribunal. I wondered a bit about where that was going and whether it was needed. But turns out to have been very valuable for them to spell it all out in front of the tribunal. Sunlight.

Sloejelly · 20/05/2024 12:04

Signalbox · 20/05/2024 11:18

It's going to be quite a long battle I think. Initially I thought one or two cases nationally would sort it out but it looks as if every sector / organisation will need to have it's own case to learn it's own lessons. For each case it is a surprise when it actually reaches the court room. Why not settle when it's clear they are not going to win?

Also what happens when organisations reflect on their loss? I can imagine that when ERCC reflect on this they will try and find some way to continue to discriminate against women who hold GC views. Perhaps they will go down the route of the Brighton RCC who (from what I've read) are open about the fact that all their services are mixed-sex and that they prioritise GI over sex. Time will tell on whether or not that's a lawful strategy or whether it is discriminatory against women.

Sadly tribunals are not always the disincentive you would hope they would be. Just look at the SEN sector; in 22/23 there were 13,658 appeals, two-thirds getting to a hearing, costing LEA over £99 million. LEA lost 98.3% of hearings.
(Though a significant difference between those and GI discrimination cases is the cost to the LEA of meeting the Children’s needs)

MinorDisaster · 20/05/2024 12:04

Just picked up the news about this. Fantastic. Congrats to Roz and her legal team.

RedToothBrush · 20/05/2024 12:05

Sloejelly · 20/05/2024 11:51

RedToothBrush

That is what Michael Foran was saying in the Critic:

The version of gender identity theory embraced by ERCC (described by the Tribunal as “dogmatic”, “extreme”, and “hardline”) is one that is not compatible with the requirements of tolerance. A central feature of this worldview is that dissent is transphobic and must be quashed. The Tribunal itself found that Mridul Wadhwa believed that all sex realist views were transphobic and that firing employees with those views was important for achieving inclusivity. Those beliefs are not compatible with tolerance and, in this extreme form, may not even be worthy of protection under the Equality Act.

Edited

Good.

Because that's exactly how I'm reading it (not read the critic's take yet - supposed to be doing other things and have got distracted by this! Will take a good look later).

To be WORIADS it has to pass the test of not causing harm or being otherwise discriminatory under law. I think it's just failed that argument.

Remember that equality law is a balancing act, so you can say that if there is a legitimate aim to protect one group there are circumstances where it is acceptable to say to another group this isn't ok because this would give you a) an unfair advantage b) you aren't as vulnerable as this group in this particular circumstance c) there should perhaps be a work around / sensitively done reasonable adjustment to avoid situations of conflict between two groups.

There is no hierarchy in the equality act and this is crucial. The act works to prevent levels of harm in order of seriousness and then works down from that in terms of need. There are circumstances where one group may need another to be effectively discriminated against to prevent these serious harms. Harms are defined in terms of the seriousness of the issue AND the numbers effected.

The ruling makes the point that the problem here is making no distinction between male and female when providing services and that this is unacceptable in the setting because it is relevant. In order to be inclusive it should be providing the services but within boxed definitions relevant to service users in a way that service users understand and can freely consent to. Because they are the most vulnerable group in consideration and it's relevant to the service provided.

In other words inclusivity ISN'T just going gender neutral and saying sex is irrelevant. Because the law says sex is relevant in certain situations.

Sloejelly · 20/05/2024 12:14

What the tribunal is saying is that Roz was moderate in believing in gender identity

The tribunal recognised that Roz had a sex realistic (gender critical) belief, the difference was she was accepting that others had a belief in gender ideology and that this was important to them. That is very different from accepting that belief.

lechiffre55 · 20/05/2024 12:17

RedToothBrush · 20/05/2024 11:53

What the tribunal is saying is that Roz was moderate in believing in gender identity to a point but also held gender critical ideas that sex is still relevant and important (so basically the tribunal is not saying that Roz thinks that trans identity is a pile of bollocks and that all trans people should be 'erased'). So Roz is the model for the lawful position on this rather than an extreme version of being GC where anyone who holds GI beliefs should lose their jobs for example. (I don't think there's many examples of this really. There are GC people calling for people to lose jobs due their GI beliefs meaning that they are failing to safeguard or have otherwise not upheld the law or have failed in their legal responsibilities which is different because there is a legitimate reason for concern rather than purely because they disagree with their beliefs. It is about their conduct not their beliefs).

Or something like that.

There's a certain amount of nuance going on here which is fairly difficult to explain. (Anyone else fancy a go?!)

I'd like a crack at this.

GI and GC beliefs, although in direct opposition are both allowed and protected views under the Equality Act.

What is not protected and is counted as discrimination under the Equality Act is to behave in a discriminatroy way towards someone holding GI or GC beliefs because of that belief.

Bullying, witchhunt, HR not following procedure, ostracisation, trying to get them fired, unequal treatment. etc.......

Some who believes in gender identity has the same protection in law as someone who holds gender critical beliefs.

It's not what you believe, it's how people treat you because of your beliefs that's the problem in all these tribunuals.

Sloejelly · 20/05/2024 12:22

It's not what you believe, it's how people treat you because of your beliefs that's the problem in all these tribunuals.

Not quite true - your beliefs have to meet the Grainger test.

“To qualify as a ‘philosophical belief’ under the Equality Act, the belief must satisfy the five criteria set out at para 24 in Grainger plc v Nicholson [2010] and mirrored in the Equality and Human Rights Commission Code of Practice 2011. These are that: The belief must be genuinely held

  • The belief must not simply be an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of information available
  • The belief must concern a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour
  • The belief must attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance
  • The belief must be worthy of respect in a democratic society, not be incompatible with human dignity and not be in conflict with the fundamental rights of others.”
lonelywater · 20/05/2024 12:30

Sloejelly · 20/05/2024 08:38

Remember, these are the organisations that the Scottish Government have been listening to.

not only listening to, but largely funding too. Then, when contentious stuff comes up, who do they "consult" on such matters? (to the total exclusion of anyone or anything that does not spout the Kool aid line)-why the very same organisations. Talk about marking your own homework.

LilyBartsHatShop · 20/05/2024 12:35

I think I prefer "sex realist" to "gender critical" as a label for my beliefs.

GailBlancheViola · 20/05/2024 12:43

Fantastic news for Roz. However it is an utter disgrace that the circumstances arose, shameful, those responsible should no longer be employed.

GailBlancheViola · 20/05/2024 12:50

How many more of these Judgments are necessary before the intolerant, bullying Gender Ideologues are properly dealt with?

RedToothBrush · 20/05/2024 12:52

Sloejelly · 20/05/2024 12:22

It's not what you believe, it's how people treat you because of your beliefs that's the problem in all these tribunuals.

Not quite true - your beliefs have to meet the Grainger test.

“To qualify as a ‘philosophical belief’ under the Equality Act, the belief must satisfy the five criteria set out at para 24 in Grainger plc v Nicholson [2010] and mirrored in the Equality and Human Rights Commission Code of Practice 2011. These are that: The belief must be genuinely held

  • The belief must not simply be an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of information available
  • The belief must concern a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour
  • The belief must attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance
  • The belief must be worthy of respect in a democratic society, not be incompatible with human dignity and not be in conflict with the fundamental rights of others.”

It has to be noted that gender critical beliefs are not at odds with gender identity in the sense that gender identity recognises sex because you can't be trans anything if you don't recognise sex!

Signalbox · 20/05/2024 13:02

Sloejelly · 20/05/2024 12:14

What the tribunal is saying is that Roz was moderate in believing in gender identity

The tribunal recognised that Roz had a sex realistic (gender critical) belief, the difference was she was accepting that others had a belief in gender ideology and that this was important to them. That is very different from accepting that belief.

Edited

Yes there was no suggestion that Roz shared anything approaching a belief in GII. Her beliefs were GC but she was prepared to try and reach a compromise with those who hold GII beliefs so that service users were not misinformed about who they were likely to come face to face with when using the service.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 20/05/2024 13:05

LilyBartsHatShop · 20/05/2024 12:35

I think I prefer "sex realist" to "gender critical" as a label for my beliefs.

I personally think it's wild there's now a name/label/whatever for stating biological fact. Plain and simple fact.

lcakethereforeIam · 20/05/2024 13:06

It's been reported in 'Personnel Today'

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/gender-critical-roz-adams-belief-discrimination/

The article seems a bit badly written. For starters wasn't it the tribunal judge who called it a 'heresy hunt' not Roz? Still, assuming this publication has any traction in the HR world, it's good to see it being reported.

Rape crisis worker wins gender critical belief claim

A female worker at a rape crisis centre has won her claim for constructive dismissal after an investigation into her gender critical beliefs.

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/gender-critical-roz-adams-belief-discrimination

Signalbox · 20/05/2024 13:07

It has to be noted that gender critical beliefs are not at odds with gender identity in the sense that gender identity recognises sex because you can't be trans anything if you don't recognise sex!

I dunno about this. Extreme trans activism makes no distinction between sex and GI. If you ID as a woman your sex is also female. It doesn’t make any logical sense but that’s what they say.

NamechangeMay24 · 20/05/2024 13:08

Brief mention on Radio 4 ‘World at One’ just now (13.07 on 20 May).

RedToothBrush · 20/05/2024 13:10

Signalbox · 20/05/2024 13:07

It has to be noted that gender critical beliefs are not at odds with gender identity in the sense that gender identity recognises sex because you can't be trans anything if you don't recognise sex!

I dunno about this. Extreme trans activism makes no distinction between sex and GI. If you ID as a woman your sex is also female. It doesn’t make any logical sense but that’s what they say.

You can't call yourself trans if you don't recognise sex even if you don't admit you are recognising sex.

Hello India.

Madcats · 20/05/2024 13:13

Good lord, R4 has just mentioned the case in the news headlines.

No sign of an article on the BBC website (though they did include a mention of it on the newspaper front pages).

I do hope somebody manages to get a statement from Maggie Chapman; Scottish Greens can't be too busy these days.