People who just don't get it

[Crowgirl]

Sorry all. I'm just fed up. Old dear friend over tonight all of the well with shouldn't we be kind? Trans women don't have penises. It's not about sterrotyoes. No one thinks kids should be treated medically. JK Rowling is mean. Of course trans sisters should be allowed in women's spaces

My head is going to explode. The absence of critical thinking is too much. I never start threads but I am so sad., so angry and so perplexed.

Sorry but I gave up debating this shit a long time ago and somehow got drawn into shaming tonight. The absence of critical thinking is beyond me.

😂So true. Not sure why that made me laugh. It’s pathetic, and in this case, dangerous.

I have a friend who, says men in a dress shouldn't be excluded from female spaces, as she doesn't think she would have a problem with it. She also doesn't understand why we just don't have open boarders to allow anyone who wants to come into the country, even if it is 20 million people. I really can't discuss it with her anymore, so we just don't speak about those subjects. I would like to think, one day she might come to realise the problems with both those scenarios.

DH said it was because it was more expensive to remove/change the urinals. I shall bring up the penis point next time.

Gosh our theatre trips are going to be fun .

She’s obv got comprehension issues.

How can anyone be arguing for 12 year old girls to be forced to share toilets and changing rooms with adult males?"

This is what it comes down to for me.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Totally agree. 💯

Who would vote for a party that promised to let men parade around bollock-naked in women’s changing rooms? Or a party that was alarmingly blasé about gay kids being ‘corrected’ with drugs and surgery? Or a party that threatened to clamp down on thoughtcriminals who refer to people with penises and testicles – you know, men – as men? If not, then don’t vote Labour in the upcoming General Election. Because it’s possible it will pursue all of these petty tyrannical policies.

The defence of sex-based rights is a critical issue. It absolutely is. Rights don’t just materialise, they have to be fought for and then defended. There is absolutely an attempt to erode women’s rights at the moment - to say that men are entitled to use women’s spaces, and that biological sex is less important than a preferred gender.

To fight this isn’t “anti-trans”. Trans people are deserving of dignity and respect - but some of the demands of the trans lobby directly threaten women’s protections. It is the ideology behind it we object to, not trans people themselves.

2/3 women are killed each week by males, in the U.K. Who knows how many are raped. Wtf would we want males in ours and our children’s spaces.

This is what people need to understand but don’t, it’s more than frustrating. I agree.

That was @WarriorN
Not me.

Then I agree with you both

Honestly, while I abhor people like IB, if you think that is the only reason NS left power then I think you are a tad misled.
(It's a tangent for this thread though).

I know it's not but it's a fun way to peak

It also triggered a major constitutional crisis! (Self id that is.)

In case I'm deleted for the mountain word, it's a fun way to discuss the issues!

I got absolutely savaged by 3 very intelligent female friends a few years ago when I said I agreed with a lot of what JKR was saying.
I've never brought it up again, but I'm secretly curious to see if their thinking has changed any over the past few years.
I really think it must have, and I'd love an apology to be honest, but I'm nervous of bringing it up.

Not all men like using urinals. My son (ASD) has a radar key because he can't use them. He used to look for a cubicle but often in the mens they're not the nicest. I don't think a public loo in this day and age should have urinals, they're smelly and unpleasant. I'm not sure what to think to be honest, I mean they could apply for a radar key, but that's only one of the issues. Instinctively I feel that trans women have an unfair advantage in sport, they will likely be stronger. As for prisons, well don't commit a crime if you're afraid of going to a men's prison. I do think that whether male or female prison they should allow trans women to be on the supported wing anyway. I believe you can request this upon admission. It's a difficult one. My son has a trans friend so he has quite strong views on it, he definitely wouldn't be undecided like me. I'm usually on the liberal side of arguments but there's just something about this one that bothers me.

Ooo bring it up, gently.. not in a told you so way but with a chance for them to extricate them selves without embarrassment from their previous fckwittery.. let us know how it goes!

Until all men opt to sit down to urinate, any public place they use will be smelly and disgusting. It’s impossible to completely control the flow and avoid any spraying/splashing when peeing from a height. Urinals are designed with a back to catch as much as possible, but they can’t stop spraying onto the floor.

Most men aren’t bothered and like the convenience of having urinals - and your son has a radar key, so I don’t know what you hope to gain by getting rid of them. Start a campaign for all men to sit down to pee? I doubt it would get much traction.

Without public take up, removing urinals would just mean that all public toilets, their seats, around the seat, under the seats, the surrounding floor would be wet with urine. It’s a much worst scenario.

I very much agree with this. It's how we ended up with big corporations signed up to schemes that I doubt few of their leaders genuinely care about.

It's a good look. Or was. Get a logo on your website and a and warm fuzzy feeling. No effort or thinking required.

Ironically, it's underpinned by homophobia. Of course men want Transwomen in the ladies loos. They don't want that sort in the men's.

I have had a recent change in perspective on this. Previously, I focussed on it not being possible for intelligent and thoughtful people to say TWAW and believe it. I am now of the view that many do, because they have decided that gametes should not be at all relevant to determining who is or isn't a woman. Coming at it from this angle they reject the notion that TW can't be women and are simply disinterested in alternative view points.

They will also say that they do feel safer around TW than males without trans identities, and say that this is no more or less rational than the gut feeling you get from different people male or female. They will point out different males and highlight how similarly women would rank them in terms of those who they would most or least want to be trapped in a lift with. They point out that they would automatically rank TW as preferable due to notions that they have rejected masculinity.

This last point is crucial as they would argue that failure to do so reflects transphobia - which fits with their claim that TW really are women. This loop reinforces and perpetuates the two related positions.

Yes I watched the 'Miriam, death of a TV star' series on Ch4 this week and the rhetoric shared by all of the talking heads was very much "I mean, obviously times have changed and we all know now that someone born male can become a woman".

Oh, really?

Miriam made a very convincing woman in the right clothes and make up, but most definitely wasn't one.

I am now of the view that many do, because they have decided that gametes should not be at all relevant to determining who is or isn't a woman.

Then how do they explain human reproduction?

They say that human reproduction occurs when 2 people capable of reproduction have sex during the fertile period.

Just to be clear, to coin a phrase, I am old fashioned and refer to the cunty type of woman. I disagree on many levels with the TWAW brigade, it's just that I have gone from being completely flummoxed by intelligent people saying, and believing TWAW, to understand the processing that sits behind their thinking.

This doesn't keep everyone happy at all, especially self conscious teenage girls who have to rustle with tampons in the next cubicle, which is what my niece suffers at her school. And that's the least of her worries.

Share sinks is a no-no for most women, who may be washing bloody hands etc. Also a room full of cubicles floor to ceiling is a safety issue. It's not just that someone may collapse inside, but that someone could be attacked, raped etc inside without anyone knowing. Mixed sex toilets, however, arranged, are a safeguarding issue for women.

So many people still have such a dated view of what a trans person is. They think it’s a very feminine gay man who fits in better with being a woman. They don’t realise you get straight male rapists in female prisons. Or that there’s a massive rise in teenage girls transitioning. It’s hard to understand how they haven’t picked up any of the numerous news stories but lots of people don’t pay attention to the news and the topic of trans didn’t interest them enough to look into.

Where would I like them to go?

I literally don't care, as long as its not in the ladies! (for the hard of thinking, this statement does not equate to 'I wish trans women harm' - I just don't need to solve their problems - I'm not their mum).

As others have said, why is this women's problem to solve? Why must we be kind as we give up our rights? As if we can only keep our spaces if we can solve the issue of accommodating trans women. It's a men's problem for men to solve - nothing to do with women.

I hate having to wash blood off my hands after dealing with a messy period with a male at the sink next to me - yes this has actually happened to me.

That processing - biology is irrelevant to male-female identity- came after these so called intelligent people took an ideological position that TWAW. I'd find it difficult to call these people intelligent.