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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Sir Kier Starmer on GMB now being asked what his stance on trans gender is

478 replies

SpringLobelia · 30/04/2024 08:27

He said he apologises to people eating their breakfast'. Hmm

He is being questioned about his treatment of Rosie Duffield but he's not answered really and moved the convo swiftly to Brianna Ghey

Susannah said you told the MP Rosie Duffield that she is wrong to say only women have a cervix and he is again deflecting.

Says he believes in safe spaces for women.

Women's prisons? - deflects again to the NHS today. no answer to any direct questions.

Says again about safe spaces being important- but again deflecting and whittering about the constituion

SR asking for clarity- is it right or wrong for RD to say only women have a cervix - KS- she is biologically right. SR- should you apologise to her?
KS- deflects. Wants discussion. Not answering the question.

I'm giving up now. He can't even string a coherent sentence together. Keeps deflecting.

IMO of course.

OP posts:
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24
DameMaud · 02/05/2024 09:15

OpusGiemuJavlo · 02/05/2024 06:41

That may be true for those who experience a gender identity (which isn't everyone) but any person (including people who don't actually believe in gender identities, including malevolent people who are looking for opportunities for personal advantage, for thrills or even in the worst cases to acruslly hurt or abuse, and you can't deny there's plenty such people) can claim any gender identity at any time. If that can't be challenged and can't be proven or disproven then there's no such thing as any space or anything reserved by gender because anyone can claim that gender. You may not be able to chose your gender identity but you can certainly choose what identity to claim and whether to speak the truth at all times and you cannot pretend that liars don't exist.

The problem isn't trans people as such biut the fact that the whole setup that would be established if gender is prioritised over sex can only possibly function if all people are good and honorable, unselfish and law-abiding. There's a lot of people who are all those things, and people who identify as trans are no less likely to be in that category than anyone else. But it's naive and ridiculous to establish rules of society that only function if 100% of people are good and honorable, unselfish and law-abiding.

Having spaces and opportunities reserved for women isn't an actual solution to centuries of discrimination and the continued misogyny deep-rooted in our culture, but it helps a bit. Making them accessible by gender not sex means they are open to anyone at all which means they no longer really exist at all as "reserved", unless humanity is changed to no longer include anyone dishonorable, selfish or abusive.

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This is very well explained!

BonfireLady · 02/05/2024 09:23

RhymesWithOrange · 02/05/2024 07:32

As well as the Party for Women standing for election in every single Labour Party target seat, I want hulking 6 foot bearded males in full face makeup and Lycra minidresses to stand, and turn up to hustings to tell voters that Labour won’t clearly say that they are men and should be kept out of women’s spaces.

Perhaps Eddie Izzard will try again. Maybe this time as an independent rather than as a Labour candidate, given the lack of success so far in being selected.

Eddie has pre-written templates that have already been used in Sheffield and Brighton (I love this city so much, I'm prepared to move here full time**, it's so important that people like me stand up for marginalised communities... <emotional pull> etc etc). Someone spotted on X that all Eddie had done was swap out the city name! It was all tweeted from the same X account, just at different times as the Sheffield campaign was first. Brighton was last year.

** Goodness Eddie, these potential constitutients are so lucky to get promises like this 🙄

Underthinker · 02/05/2024 09:23

ButterflyHatched · 01/05/2024 23:16

Swap trans with any other minority group and try saying that again.

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Scientologist?

BonfireLady · 02/05/2024 09:41

OpusGiemuJavlo · 02/05/2024 06:41

That may be true for those who experience a gender identity (which isn't everyone) but any person (including people who don't actually believe in gender identities, including malevolent people who are looking for opportunities for personal advantage, for thrills or even in the worst cases to acruslly hurt or abuse, and you can't deny there's plenty such people) can claim any gender identity at any time. If that can't be challenged and can't be proven or disproven then there's no such thing as any space or anything reserved by gender because anyone can claim that gender. You may not be able to chose your gender identity but you can certainly choose what identity to claim and whether to speak the truth at all times and you cannot pretend that liars don't exist.

The problem isn't trans people as such biut the fact that the whole setup that would be established if gender is prioritised over sex can only possibly function if all people are good and honorable, unselfish and law-abiding. There's a lot of people who are all those things, and people who identify as trans are no less likely to be in that category than anyone else. But it's naive and ridiculous to establish rules of society that only function if 100% of people are good and honorable, unselfish and law-abiding.

Having spaces and opportunities reserved for women isn't an actual solution to centuries of discrimination and the continued misogyny deep-rooted in our culture, but it helps a bit. Making them accessible by gender not sex means they are open to anyone at all which means they no longer really exist at all as "reserved", unless humanity is changed to no longer include anyone dishonorable, selfish or abusive.

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This 👏👏👏👏👏

I was trying to write a response to Butterfly about "choosing" gender identity that was both respectful and clear. You have nailed it.

To add, this also helps to articulate why the idea of "choosing" sexual orientation has no connection whatsoever to gender identity. Nobody chooses who they are attracted to and everybody (unless their sexual function is impaired e.g. a side effect of antidepressants) has a sexual orientation: LGB or "straight" i.e. same-sex attracted or opposite-sex attracted or both. Sexual orientation is factual, the idea that we all have a gender identity is belief.

Dineasair · 02/05/2024 10:04

EasternStandard · 02/05/2024 07:26

Men are not a minority group

That sex class could encompass all representation instead

It doesn’t have to impact women

Your identity could be as you wish, accepted by your sex class

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👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Dineasair · 02/05/2024 10:05

RhymesWithOrange · 02/05/2024 07:32

As well as the Party for Women standing for election in every single Labour Party target seat, I want hulking 6 foot bearded males in full face makeup and Lycra minidresses to stand, and turn up to hustings to tell voters that Labour won’t clearly say that they are men and should be kept out of women’s spaces.

Me to.

Dineasair · 02/05/2024 10:10

Polishedshoesalways · 02/05/2024 07:41

Butterfly you have benefited from male privilege all of your life, from the minute you were born. You have no idea about the oppression many girls and women suffer from birth. None. It’s beyond your life experience to imagine just how ingrained this is in our culture so I take issue with your claim that they matter LESS than other groups!

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👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Dineasair · 02/05/2024 10:15

Underthinker · 02/05/2024 09:23

Scientologist?

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👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Wherewerewerewear · 02/05/2024 10:22

RebelliousCow · 02/05/2024 08:18

Is there a way of finding out the donations each party receives and when?

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This is a good website, with very interesting information.
https://gendercriticalwoman.blog/2023/09/26/linda-riley/

Sone pages talk about donations - there’s a list done where, to Angela Eagle etc.

I don’t think financial donations are the motivator here, however.

Linda Riley

Since Riley has resurfaced, attacking Sharon Davies, for defending single sex sports, I though it would be timely to capture some of Riley’s claims to fame. Here she is allying herself with Labour …

https://gendercriticalwoman.blog/2023/09/26/linda-riley/

Wherewerewerewear · 02/05/2024 10:25

All sorts of info when you click on the ‘Menu’.

Wherewerewerewear · 02/05/2024 10:26

https://search.electoralcommission.org.uk//?currentPage=1&rows=10&query=Anthony%20Watson%20&sort=AcceptedDate&order=desc&tab=1&closed=common&et=pp&et=ppm&et=tp&et=perpar&et=rd&et=pp&et=ppm&et=tp&et=perpar&et=rd&isIrishSourceYes=true&isIrishSourceNo=true&prePoll=false&postPoll=true&register=gb&register=ni&register=none&register=gb&register=ni&register=none&optCols=Register&optCols=CampaigningName&optCols=AccountingUnitsAsCentralParty&optCols=IsSponsorship&optCols=IsIrishSource&optCols=RegulatedDoneeType&optCols=CompanyRegistrationNumber&optCols=Postcode&optCols=NatureOfDonation&optCols=PurposeOfVisit&optCols=DonationAction&optCols=ReportedDate&optCols=IsReportedPrePoll&optCols=ReportingPeriodName&optCols=IsBequest&optCols=IsAggregation

Search - The Electoral Commission

https://search.electoralcommission.org.uk//?currentPage=1&rows=10&query=Anthony%20Watson%20&sort=AcceptedDate&order=desc&tab=1&closed=common&et=pp&et=ppm&et=tp&et=perpar&et=rd&et=pp&et=ppm&et=tp&et=perpar&et=rd&isIrishSourceYes=true&isIrishSourceNo=true&prePoll=false&postPoll=true&register=gb&register=ni&register=none&register=gb&register=ni&register=none&optCols=Register&optCols=CampaigningName&optCols=AccountingUnitsAsCentralParty&optCols=IsSponsorship&optCols=IsIrishSource&optCols=RegulatedDoneeType&optCols=CompanyRegistrationNumber&optCols=Postcode&optCols=NatureOfDonation&optCols=PurposeOfVisit&optCols=DonationAction&optCols=ReportedDate&optCols=IsReportedPrePoll&optCols=ReportingPeriodName&optCols=IsBequest&optCols=IsAggregation

Wherewerewerewear · 02/05/2024 10:30

Donations from Watson

Sir Kier Starmer on GMB now being asked what his stance on trans gender is
Sir Kier Starmer on GMB now being asked what his stance on trans gender is
ButterflyHatched · 02/05/2024 10:50

RebelliousCow · 02/05/2024 08:35

What you did was frame your feelings in a certain way. That you have framed your feelings in such a way as to indicate that you a really a girl/a woman, doesn't detract from the fact you are not. Only if you believe that being a woman is a state of mind, rather than a state of biology would this be true.

I've been watching 'There's Something about Miriam' on Channel 4. A very sad story about a young Mexican boy( whose father could not accept such a feminine boy who was clearly gay - and so took him to a pastor to be exorcised). Hugo, as he was, was also secretly dressing up in girls clothing.

It ended up with Miriam ( Hugo) taking part in a British reality TV show in 2002 which became very controversial - for obvious reasons. Years later Miriam committed suicide/though some still believe s/he was murdered. Miriam 'passed' very well, and was indeed very beautiful - but still remained male. This essential fact is what caused so much distress and difficulty for Miriam( and for those who identify as trans but cannot accept they are still their birth sex)

We can all accept that some men feel this very strongly, and that some young women feel that they are boys/men and that they feel an irresistable urge to manifest this feeling through dress, mannerisms and behaviours - but we have single sex spaces and provisions on the basis of biological sex, not on inner feeling or outward dress.

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I watched that the first time round. That poor woman was treated as a punchline by deeply callous and unpleasant producers - par for the course back then, tragically. I felt so sorry for her.

ButterflyHatched · 02/05/2024 10:51

BonfireLady · 02/05/2024 09:41

This 👏👏👏👏👏

I was trying to write a response to Butterfly about "choosing" gender identity that was both respectful and clear. You have nailed it.

To add, this also helps to articulate why the idea of "choosing" sexual orientation has no connection whatsoever to gender identity. Nobody chooses who they are attracted to and everybody (unless their sexual function is impaired e.g. a side effect of antidepressants) has a sexual orientation: LGB or "straight" i.e. same-sex attracted or opposite-sex attracted or both. Sexual orientation is factual, the idea that we all have a gender identity is belief.

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People used to say the same thing about sexual orientation. How can you not see this?

ButterflyHatched · 02/05/2024 11:00

OpusGiemuJavlo · 02/05/2024 06:41

That may be true for those who experience a gender identity (which isn't everyone) but any person (including people who don't actually believe in gender identities, including malevolent people who are looking for opportunities for personal advantage, for thrills or even in the worst cases to acruslly hurt or abuse, and you can't deny there's plenty such people) can claim any gender identity at any time. If that can't be challenged and can't be proven or disproven then there's no such thing as any space or anything reserved by gender because anyone can claim that gender. You may not be able to chose your gender identity but you can certainly choose what identity to claim and whether to speak the truth at all times and you cannot pretend that liars don't exist.

The problem isn't trans people as such biut the fact that the whole setup that would be established if gender is prioritised over sex can only possibly function if all people are good and honorable, unselfish and law-abiding. There's a lot of people who are all those things, and people who identify as trans are no less likely to be in that category than anyone else. But it's naive and ridiculous to establish rules of society that only function if 100% of people are good and honorable, unselfish and law-abiding.

Having spaces and opportunities reserved for women isn't an actual solution to centuries of discrimination and the continued misogyny deep-rooted in our culture, but it helps a bit. Making them accessible by gender not sex means they are open to anyone at all which means they no longer really exist at all as "reserved", unless humanity is changed to no longer include anyone dishonorable, selfish or abusive.

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Thankyou for this - I agree that utopian ideals are vulnerable to bad faith actors and that's why we have laws.

illinivich · 02/05/2024 11:04

It wouldn't matter if people gender identity was real, made up, fixed from birth or aquired over time if those with gender identity didnt want to remove single sex spaces opportunities and use the words for sex 'women/men/male/female' for their gender identity.

Great if a man has a gender identity, but not if its going to be used to humiliate others (as in this programme) or take away other people rights (as in womens rights).

Sexual orientation isnt used in the same way. Men don't enter womens spaces based of their sexual orientation, men dont because of their religion.

Lots of thing about us are based on belief, or things we cannot see in someone, but only those with gender identy are using it to override establish rights of others.

EasternStandard · 02/05/2024 11:07

ButterflyHatched · 02/05/2024 10:51

People used to say the same thing about sexual orientation. How can you not see this?

Show quote history

You can choose which ever presentation you wish, I think we’re looking for the wrong outcome though as a society

Your sex class should change. Progressive would be to get men to accommodate all variations of maleness

BonfireLady · 02/05/2024 11:10

ButterflyHatched · 02/05/2024 10:51

People used to say the same thing about sexual orientation. How can you not see this?

Show quote history

Perhaps people were closed-minded and/or led to believe that same-sex attraction was a sin? Yes. Obviously.

But who someone is attracted to and whether they believe themselves to have a gendered soul/essence are not the same thing.

I won't ask how you can't see this because I fully accept that anyone who believes that they have a gender identity will believe that it's a truth.

Instead, I'll default to the key point: no laws or policies should ever be built around a belief that not everyone holds.

How do we balance belief and discrimination?

Like this:
https://www.philosophersmag.com/essays/321-the-transgender-rights-issue

Please stop conflating sexual orientation and gender identity belief. I do not believe that we all have a gender identity. I accept that you do believe in it and that it is important to your understanding of yourself - I'm happy for you that it gives you comfort in this way, in a similar way to how I'm happy for Christians for whom a belief in god gives them comfort. But nobody will ever convince me that I should accept their belief as fact.

The Transgender-Rights Issue - The Philosophers' Magazine

The website of The Philosophers' Magazine.

https://www.philosophersmag.com/essays/321-the-transgender-rights-issue

BonfireLady · 02/05/2024 11:12

ButterflyHatched · 02/05/2024 11:00

Thankyou for this - I agree that utopian ideals are vulnerable to bad faith actors and that's why we have laws.

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Thank you for stating this.

BloodyHellKenAgain · 02/05/2024 12:11

Wherewerewerewear · 02/05/2024 10:25

Thank you for posting this.
I am continually surprised by the number of gay men and lesbians who want to and think others should accept opposite sex relationships/sex. It is the very opposite of same sex attraction.

Does this mean Angela Eagle is now straight?!

As for the US Labour Party donor. I knew about him already but what I don't understand is how/why he supports the gender stuff. Presumably this means he's happy to partake of 'mangina' and is therefore not same sex attracted either.

Clavinova · 02/05/2024 12:40

StainlessSteelMouse · 01/05/2024 20:30

I'm sure that Starmer was a competent DPP. It's just worth remembering that the DPP isn't the badass trial lawyer prosecuting terrorists that Labour would have us believe. The DPP is effectively the Perm Sec of a small department and spends his time on the duties of a Perm Sec.

There are three people who will matter in a Labour government. That's Starmer, Reeves and Sue Gray. They're all Whitehall functionaries. I'm sure they will be quite competent at the bureaucratic stuff that makes up most of what government does.

Still and all, I'm not sure I approve of making Sir Humphrey the PM. That's not Sir Humphrey's function. And at least as much of this mess can be laid at Sir Humphrey's feet as the feet of the elected politicians.

Sue Gray was apparently opposed to blocking Scotland's gender recognition bill (or she was working on instructions from Keir Starmer):

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-11821695/DAN-HODGES-Sue-Gray-recruitment-annihilates-pretence-Starmer-man-principle.html

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23363583.sue-gray-opposed-tories-blocking-scotlands-gender-reform-bill/

StainlessSteelMouse · 02/05/2024 12:48

Clavinova · 02/05/2024 12:40

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I wonder if this is Sue working on instructions from Starmer or Sue displaying default Cabinet Office caution about the government deploying a s.35 order since it had never been done before. Either or both would be possible.