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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are women safer if they encounter a bear or a man in the woods?

243 replies

IcakethereforeIam · 29/04/2024 15:20

This is an interesting thought experiment

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/relationships/article-13360727/man-bear-viral-question-domestic-violence-australia-dating.html

The DM nick enough off MN, so no apology for returning the favour.

Definitely team bear here.

There are links to articles regarding DV in Australia.

This simple yet heavy 'viral' question is leading to breakups

A hypothetical question that asks whether women are safer if they encounter a bear or an unknown man in the forest has sparked a heated debate about male violence.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/relationships/article-13360727/man-bear-viral-question-domestic-violence-australia-dating.html

OP posts:
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NoBinturongsHereMate · 03/05/2024 10:50

Statistically, you are more likely to be attacked, killed or raped in a city.

And not by a bear. Which is rather the point.

backinthebox · 03/05/2024 11:52

NoBinturongsHereMate · 03/05/2024 10:50

Statistically, you are more likely to be attacked, killed or raped in a city.

And not by a bear. Which is rather the point.

‘Man vs bear’ is a hypothetical question which doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. It is all based on feelings, not facts. And that is rather the point of my post. Of course you are not likely to be attacked by a bear in a city. Your point just highlights the futility of this comparison - women would rather face something they have no real knowledge of and have no likelihood of ever meeting than a man (who are present more or less everywhere women are, and the majority of whom are ‘safe’) because a small number of men are bad. It’s not an argument that is based on facts, it’s based on feels, which renders it pointless, and the division it is creating is not constructive.

carerlookingtochangejob · 03/05/2024 11:56

@backinthebox did you bother watching the two video clips I posted? I'm guessing not!

It is absolutely based on facts!

NoBinturongsHereMate · 03/05/2024 12:38

Of course you are not likely to be attacked by a bear in a city.

The point is about where you said you feel safe and unsafe. You feel unsafe in cities. The source of danger in cities is not bears.

Thelnebriati · 03/05/2024 12:44

Its a thought experiment and the question is 'would you rather deal with' not 'would you be safer.'

A man went on the rampage and targeted women, women don't feel safe around strange men - but its women causing the division?

Onionbelt · 03/05/2024 13:28

Hoppinggreen · 03/05/2024 09:28

Yes, I Imagine they wonder whats wrong with Women rather than looking at their own sex

Yeah, except they don't wonder so much as know exactly whats wrong with women, and feel very free to tell us.
Some of the comments have been literally bullshit (mothers are responsible for the majority of child murders, women are equal participants in DV) and demonstrate the cognitive dissonance we are up against.

tabulahrasa · 03/05/2024 13:33

backinthebox · 03/05/2024 11:52

‘Man vs bear’ is a hypothetical question which doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. It is all based on feelings, not facts. And that is rather the point of my post. Of course you are not likely to be attacked by a bear in a city. Your point just highlights the futility of this comparison - women would rather face something they have no real knowledge of and have no likelihood of ever meeting than a man (who are present more or less everywhere women are, and the majority of whom are ‘safe’) because a small number of men are bad. It’s not an argument that is based on facts, it’s based on feels, which renders it pointless, and the division it is creating is not constructive.

I mean of course it’s based on feels, scared is a feeling, safe is all perception.

You’re statistically more likely to be killed by a cow than a dog, doesn’t help people who are scared of dogs feel safer though.

Maaate · 03/05/2024 13:34

"a bear would see me as a human being"

"A bear wouldn't take videos and send it to his friends"

"a bear wouldn't clean me up afterwards and tell me not to tell mummy"

Fuck, that's pretty much done for me.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGexWmDYa/

But you carry on telling women why they are wrong to feel the way they do

TikTok - Make Your Day

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGexWmDYa

backinthebox · 03/05/2024 16:28

carerlookingtochangejob · 03/05/2024 11:56

@backinthebox did you bother watching the two video clips I posted? I'm guessing not!

It is absolutely based on facts!

I did start to watch them, but did not finish. I found the man patronising. Speaking rapidly with a deliberate attempt to bamboozle, some generous interpretation of factored up statistics, liberal use of ‘you don’t wanna know that’ to gloss over facts and statistics that don’t fit his narrative, reinforcement of his superiority by citing his academic qualifications, and above all, the patronising repeated use of the statement ‘listen to women’ to tell me what I should be thinking. I know what I’m thinking, and I was a woman last I checked. I don’t need to take some random internet man’s instructions in how to think. Just because you have found a TikTok video that you agree with, it doesn’t mean everyone has to agree with it or they are stupid.

backinthebox · 03/05/2024 16:41

NoBinturongsHereMate · 03/05/2024 12:38

Of course you are not likely to be attacked by a bear in a city.

The point is about where you said you feel safe and unsafe. You feel unsafe in cities. The source of danger in cities is not bears.

There are more people in cities than there are in forests. There are more criminals in cities than there are in forests. Most criminals are men. This is not the same as saying most men are criminals. And feel free to go back and read my words again carefully. I did not say I feel unsafe all the time in all cities. I feel safer in, say, Basingstoke than I do in Capetown. Same proportion of men in each city, the source of danger in Capetown is not all men, but it is much more uncool to differentiate between sorts of men than it is to differentiate between different sorts of bear. The fact remains though that most men are not threats. A very small number of men are horrible threats. This does not mean that I should assume all men are threats. It becomes impossible to exist in a world where you treat every man as a threat to you at all times.

carerlookingtochangejob · 03/05/2024 16:42

@backinthebox so your saying you disagree with something you couldn't even be bothered to watch properly. Ok!!! 🙄

guinnessguzzler · 03/05/2024 18:52

@backinthebox I'm intrigued ... what on earth is your job?!

gocompare · 03/05/2024 19:17

I've been watching a few live broadcasts on tik tok and a lot of them (when it's a man hosting or whatever you call it on there) are shouting at women and saying you are wrong. Being aggressive in their language and trying to change the response through aggression and shouting.

It's like ffs you are part of the reason why we are picking the bear but they just can't see that and that is the fucking problem.

Tok tok is full of nonsense but I have learned quite a bit about the 4b movement and again it's men kicking off about how we are wrong.

All about men being right and women needing to do as they are told. It's so depressing that they can't see that if they don't want to offer a solution they are part of the problem.

backinthebox · 03/05/2024 21:21

@carerlookingtochangejob I think I gave it a pretty good go. I did not say I disagreed with it though, I said I had not finished watching it and gave my reasons, which to me are perfectly valid reasons. I don’t have to watch a video you find interesting in order to form my own opinions on a question which is about my opinion. I feel quite worried though that there are a lot of other people out there who have to watch a TikTok/youtube/instagram video to validate their own opinion. I find it utterly baffling that any woman would be extolling the veracity of a man who is telling you what your opinion should be on the matter of whether you can trust a man.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 03/05/2024 22:19

If you watched to the end you would see he makes exactly those points - it's an opinion question, not a fact one (but the opinions themselves give important information); and it's not one for men to answer.

BigBoysDontCry · 04/05/2024 09:49

backinthebox · 03/05/2024 10:06

This is such a weird debate.

I work in an environment where I am locked, on my own, for hours at a time with a man I do not know. It’s a different man each time I go to work. The place I am locked in is a small bulletproof box only 10ft square. I will eat and sometimes sleep in close proximity with this man I do not know. Sometimes I have to sleep in a bunk which is even smaller still, and the only thing separating me from the man is a curtain down the middle of the bed.

In over 25 years of working like this, I’ve never felt threatened. I realise this puts me in a lucky position, but statistically, I should have encountered a threat somewhere along the way, and I haven’t.

I also take part in 2 sports which see me on my own in a forest, with men also taking part. They are there for taking part in the sport too. I feel comfortable asking them for help, and frequently run or ride with them. I’ve been in forests with wild animals in at night, and would rather take my chances with a man than a wild bear.

For me, a forest is generally a safe and welcoming place, I don’t feel uncomfortable in them. I feel a lot more threatened in a city walking on my own. This is despite there being more people around. I walk in a city in a state of alertness to people around me, because I don’t always feel safe. Statistically, you are more likely to be attacked, killed or raped in a city. Random attacks in the countryside make headline news precisely because they are so rare. We had one several years ago at the bottom of the hill from us. I still feel safer in my forest than in a city.

People’s perception of ‘safe’ is very much dependent on their regular surroundings, their comfort zones, and as has already been stated numerous times the argument ‘man vs bear’ is very much dependent on the man and on the bear. Jack the Ripper vs a koala bear? I’ll take the bear. My Mr Menno vs a grizzly? I’ll take the man. In general, stood in a forest confronted by a random bear and a random man? I would still assume the man was a safer bet than the bear.

The whole of biology is built on males and females forming partnerships. And for the most part, this works because for all the men who attack women, there are still millions and millions more who don’t. The rapists and the killers are aberrations, and even in prison these men are treated as aberrations by the other (male) prisoners. Most men are disgusted by men who attack women.

I think this is a sad and divisive argument that will have no winners.

Presumably people know who you are locked in with? That's your protection. If you were killed they'd know exactly who did it and the chances of being caught or at least investigated if they did anything else is high.

Stranger in the woods? Their risk of being caught is drastically reduced.

Also if it's different men all the time then they are also less likely to be able to build up a relationship to allow "consensual" abuse.

So your circumstance has built in protection.

whatnow123 · 04/05/2024 11:38

I think this question is so bizarre. I quite like walking, trails, hikes woods sometimes alone. I come across women regularly walking dogs, going for a run etc etc. Most of the time it's a good morning or good afternoon etc.

The fact is statically women are more likely to be killed by someone they know in the woods than a stranger. Men are far more likely to be killed by another man they dont know.

anothernamitynamenamechange · 04/05/2024 13:09

@whatnow123 In fairness, part of the reason men are more likely to be killed by a stranger is due to behaviour differences - men take less measures in their daily lives (running at night etc) than women precisely because they fear strangers less/because they reckon they have an easier time fighting them of. That's not victim blaming- I would like everyone to be able to go wherever all the time, but the fact is women voluntarily restrict their own freedom because of (often valid) safety concerns and this leads to less stranger murder.
And this isn't something mad feminists made up. Whenever there is a spate of killings of women etc the police advice is for women to stay home. The police regularly target adverts at women telling them not to get their drink spiked, not to take unlicensed mini-cabs etc. When a woman is raped her behaviour is called into question - why did you get in his car etc. That's just a fact. You have to say be careful, but you can't say who you should be careful of because that's offensive

In high trust societies there is more safety, and more freedom for everyone. (We are actually pretty lucky in the West). In lower trust/very male dominated societies (India/Afghanistan) women have less freedom/safety and men also suffer violence at a higher rate - especially boys and sexual violence though still at a lower rate than female children.

anothernamitynamenamechange · 04/05/2024 13:19

But to be honest, I don't feel terrified every time I encounter a man in the woods. That's partly because "the woods" are fairly filled with other dog walkers, close to my house so they feel safe.

"The woods" in the question are sort of a stand in for being away from other eyes etc. Its like in Heart of Darkness or films like the Purge - the question is how would you/other people act if all the normal rules of society were stripped away or if there were no consequences for your actions. Its actually quite a deep/disturbing question and it comes up in lots of different ways. I would like to think I have committed all the murders and rapes I want to commit, I would like to think you are the same but you can't know what strangers are thinking. The internet makes that worse IMO since it gives the impression that you can see other peoples secret thoughts and its not good - you only have to spend a few hours browsing reddit or Twitter etc to get the impression lots of men have quite violent fantasies about hurting women. See also Pornhub. That's not ALL men. But I don't know whether my friendly neighbour secretly gets of to women being strangled. I just know a lot of men do. If you were trapped with one of those men and you knew there was no oversight/no consequences and you knew they were stronger than you would you feel safe? That's sort of the question. Its not, do I think my friendly neighbour or any random man is a rapist.

TL/DR the internet is destroying a lot of trust in society by letting everyone see everyone else's worse side. I don't think the man v bear is a new argument. "Is man better than beasts" is something that male philosophers/writers have asked for millenia. Its only annoying people now because its women asking that question about men specifically.

DrJoanAllenby · 04/05/2024 19:43

.

Are women safer if they encounter a bear or a man in the woods?
anothernamitynamenamechange · 04/05/2024 20:07

DrJoanAllenby · 04/05/2024 19:43

.

What if the man was wearing a bear costume? Or the bear was wearing a man costume??? Would that be more or less perterbing. I don't think people have really delved into all the possible permutations of this conundrum.

ScepticalConspiracyTheorist · 06/05/2024 15:47

I'd like to know if any of the women who voted "bear" have seen the antics of the grizzly bears Van and Alice on the BBC's Great Bear Stakeout programme?

The last 15 minutes of episode 1 might possibly be of interest

I would vote man because although I have experienced some fairly horrific violence from men I don't fancy getting my face ripped off by a huge animal with kitchen knives for claws

SerendipityJane · 06/05/2024 15:54

ScepticalConspiracyTheorist · 06/05/2024 15:47

I'd like to know if any of the women who voted "bear" have seen the antics of the grizzly bears Van and Alice on the BBC's Great Bear Stakeout programme?

The last 15 minutes of episode 1 might possibly be of interest

I would vote man because although I have experienced some fairly horrific violence from men I don't fancy getting my face ripped off by a huge animal with kitchen knives for claws

The additional scenario of woman + man + bear would be interesting.

Obviously there would be some edge votes that the man + bear would team up to do in the woman. However I suspect most people would feel the man would protect the woman and quite possible die doing so.

The imagination is a wonderful place if you can find it.

guinnessguzzler · 06/05/2024 20:40

Yes, man + bear is an idea I could get behind. Then all you need to do is outsmart / outrun the man, leaving him for the bear while you escape 😁

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