Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Gender neutral toilets

79 replies

MrsLeonFarrell · 26/04/2024 18:44

Alistair Campbell on Instagram chose as his tree of the day a toilet door with Gender Neutral on it. He can't see the issue apparently.

I wanted to explain succinctly but kept deleting, any ideas? Basically I don't think he's thought about the subject from the female perspective.

What a subject for my first post here!

OP posts:
80skid · 26/04/2024 20:31

Keeptoiletssafe · 26/04/2024 20:11

People are more likely to come to harm in gender neutral (mixed sex) toilets. This is because they are fully enclosed and private. The design for mixed sex toilets has to be and scarily the government are even thinking of this as a preferred design for single sex toilets too.

Gender neutral (mixed sex) toilets discriminate against medically vulnerable people and those having a medical emergency. Because of the lack of a visibility gap at the bottom of the door and no means of going over the door, there is no way to know if someone is in trouble anymore. This is particularly important when people are having strokes, seizures and heart attacks and other brain injuries. The first place people head to is the toilet when they feel ill, so a larger amount of people will end up there in a crisis. It is made worse because toilet doors usually swing inwards into the toilet, so when a body falls against it then it can’t be accessed even when someone tries to unlock it.

In 2015, before the increase in gender neutral facilities in schools, the BBC stated that there was at least one rape per school day recorded inside British school premises. It was discussed in Parliament. Where are these sexual assaults happening? Is it a good idea to introduce small enclosed private mix sex spaces into schools? What about drug taking? Self harm? Teachers are reporting sexual assaults are happening in mix sex toilets. They don’t know how many pupils are in each cubicle and what is happening in them.

If you look at the numbers of people raped and assaulted in disabled toilets it is high because they are mixed sex and private. Able bodied people are pushed into them or perpetrators follow disabled people in. A young girl was recently raped in a disabled toilet at a very busy station. No one was aware.

Safeguarding is about prevention. If there is an emergency building evacuation, it takes a few seconds for a fightfighter or supervisor to check a row of toilets with door gaps. It takes much longer if the occupants are not visible and the doors are locked.

It is also useful to know who is outside the toilet door for an occupant inside if you feel threatened/followed.

Hygiene is compromised in mixed sex toilets. There is less air circulation. Mops can’t go under the door and the floors can’t be washed down easily. Cleaners have to get in and out of the cubicles.

Grime ends up stuck to the full height doors or they warp due to liquid build up causing more cubicles to be out of use.

If you are a healthy, able-bodied man, and haven’t experienced anyone having a medical emergency or being assaulted in a toilet then I expect you would think they are a good idea.

That's a great comprehensive list
I would add to that the ease of which voyeurs (usually male) can secrete hidden cameras in cubicles because they have free and easy access to mixed sex toilets. The access to women's toilets is more obvious so more difficult for them.

WibblyWobblyWeeble · 26/04/2024 20:35

agent765 · 26/04/2024 18:57

I was just about to add this.

Show quote history

The maddening thing is, that I know women who say, "oh, but that's Cis men, transwomen are women and so very lovely and gentle etc etc".
How stupid can you be?.

Stripybasket · 26/04/2024 20:36

There's an absolute arsehole on the thread who is driving me mad. Honestly what is wrong with people? This is not a hard concept to understand. Women commenting should really know better.

Countrylife2002 · 26/04/2024 20:38

Stripybasket · 26/04/2024 20:36

There's an absolute arsehole on the thread who is driving me mad. Honestly what is wrong with people? This is not a hard concept to understand. Women commenting should really know better.

The one who keeps insisting that women’s toilets aren’t being replaced ? Feel like that’s someone who hasn’t left their house for sale time..

Stripybasket · 26/04/2024 20:43

@Countrylife2002 yes!!

Tinysoxx · 26/04/2024 20:57

Countrylife2002 · 26/04/2024 20:38

The one who keeps insisting that women’s toilets aren’t being replaced ? Feel like that’s someone who hasn’t left their house for sale time..

Show quote history

Has anyone posted the Wales newspaper article to him? Those girls have had their toilets replaced, like in many schools. As soon as you make toilets private and mixed sex:

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/drug-dealing-drinking-dirt-problems-28517175

'Drug dealing, drinking and dirt' The problems with school toilets in Wales

Pupils are taking drugs and drinking in "dangerous unhygienic" completely enclosed toilet cubicles, says a report by campaign group Merched Cymru

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/drug-dealing-drinking-dirt-problems-28517175

agent765 · 26/04/2024 21:08

My DGD's school is one of those schools.

Girls are not being physically harmed by boys. They're harming themselves by avoiding drinking as the toilets are disgusting (pee over the floor and seats after the boys) or have boys there waiting like crocs in the Nile for a girl to come in so they can try filming them either using the loo or, in one girl's case, washing blood off her hands after dealing with her period.

The filming is without doubt driven by porn and social media. The mess, some girls say, is being made deliberately by the boys.

It's a sorry state of affairs that's affecting young girls badly.

Original poster
MrsLeonFarrell · 26/04/2024 21:56

DialSquare · 26/04/2024 19:42

And Pennyroyal

Show quote history

Absolutely!

OP posts:
Original poster
MrsLeonFarrell · 26/04/2024 21:57

ManchesterBeatrice · 26/04/2024 20:22

What is a tree of the day?

He posts a photo of a tree everyday on Instagram, today it was a toilet door.

OP posts:
Original poster
MrsLeonFarrell · 26/04/2024 21:58

Runskiyoga · 26/04/2024 20:08

Is the response any different on Instagram vs Twitter?

I'm not on twitter but I would be interested to know the answer to this.

OP posts:
Original poster
MrsLeonFarrell · 26/04/2024 21:59

Keeptoiletssafe · 26/04/2024 20:11

People are more likely to come to harm in gender neutral (mixed sex) toilets. This is because they are fully enclosed and private. The design for mixed sex toilets has to be and scarily the government are even thinking of this as a preferred design for single sex toilets too.

Gender neutral (mixed sex) toilets discriminate against medically vulnerable people and those having a medical emergency. Because of the lack of a visibility gap at the bottom of the door and no means of going over the door, there is no way to know if someone is in trouble anymore. This is particularly important when people are having strokes, seizures and heart attacks and other brain injuries. The first place people head to is the toilet when they feel ill, so a larger amount of people will end up there in a crisis. It is made worse because toilet doors usually swing inwards into the toilet, so when a body falls against it then it can’t be accessed even when someone tries to unlock it.

In 2015, before the increase in gender neutral facilities in schools, the BBC stated that there was at least one rape per school day recorded inside British school premises. It was discussed in Parliament. Where are these sexual assaults happening? Is it a good idea to introduce small enclosed private mix sex spaces into schools? What about drug taking? Self harm? Teachers are reporting sexual assaults are happening in mix sex toilets. They don’t know how many pupils are in each cubicle and what is happening in them.

If you look at the numbers of people raped and assaulted in disabled toilets it is high because they are mixed sex and private. Able bodied people are pushed into them or perpetrators follow disabled people in. A young girl was recently raped in a disabled toilet at a very busy station. No one was aware.

Safeguarding is about prevention. If there is an emergency building evacuation, it takes a few seconds for a fightfighter or supervisor to check a row of toilets with door gaps. It takes much longer if the occupants are not visible and the doors are locked.

It is also useful to know who is outside the toilet door for an occupant inside if you feel threatened/followed.

Hygiene is compromised in mixed sex toilets. There is less air circulation. Mops can’t go under the door and the floors can’t be washed down easily. Cleaners have to get in and out of the cubicles.

Grime ends up stuck to the full height doors or they warp due to liquid build up causing more cubicles to be out of use.

If you are a healthy, able-bodied man, and haven’t experienced anyone having a medical emergency or being assaulted in a toilet then I expect you would think they are a good idea.

This is a great list, thanks.

OP posts:
MamaAndTheSofa · 26/04/2024 22:39

I saw his X post, and every single thing that he said was good about gender neutral toilets was, in fact, a benefit only for men. Things like "no pee on the floor" and "no cigarette butts in the loo".

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 26/04/2024 22:49

Not a surprise. Campbell and Rory Stewart are constantly downplaying women's concerns on The Rest is Politics.

Why can't you all just shut up and #BeKind, Ladies, so the centrist dads can pat themselves on the back for their progressiveness?

TitusMoan · 26/04/2024 22:50

He bows to his daughter Grace on this kind of thing. If Grace changes her mind, he will too. But yes, he’s thoughtless and inconsiderate.

TitusMoan · 26/04/2024 22:52

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 26/04/2024 22:49

Not a surprise. Campbell and Rory Stewart are constantly downplaying women's concerns on The Rest is Politics.

Why can't you all just shut up and #BeKind, Ladies, so the centrist dads can pat themselves on the back for their progressiveness?

Did you hear the chaps on The Rest is History scoffing about TRIP and calling them Centrist Dads? Streets ahead intellectually of Campbell and Stewart. It was very funny.

Tinysoxx · 26/04/2024 23:08

MamaAndTheSofa · 26/04/2024 22:39

I saw his X post, and every single thing that he said was good about gender neutral toilets was, in fact, a benefit only for men. Things like "no pee on the floor" and "no cigarette butts in the loo".

We have several defibrillators in town. It’s no good having the defibrillators if the man who’s had a heart attack is in a toilet and no one knows he’s there because it’s a private fully enclosed space. And if they do know he’s there they can’t get to him because he’s fallen against the inward facing door.

People often end up heading for the toilet when ill (like being nauseous before a heart attack) and the act of urinating/pooing can bring on a heart attack. Rare but much more crucial than if there’s a floating cigarette butt.

Toilets that single sexed and have the traditional door gaps will save men’s and women’s lives by the fact a collapsed person can be seen and accessed quicker.

Morwenscapacioussleeves · 26/04/2024 23:08

Fantastic post Keeptoiletssafe!
I've never thought of the fire/evacuation aspect before

Keeptoiletssafe · 26/04/2024 23:35

Morwenscapacioussleeves · 26/04/2024 23:08

Fantastic post Keeptoiletssafe!
I've never thought of the fire/evacuation aspect before

Thank you. Yes can you imagine if a building is being filled with smoke? At what point do you stop hammering on a locked private toilet cubicle? There may not even be anyone inside. You can’t get to them anyway. And you need to prioritise your time to search other rooms. And get out safely yourself.

I did a timed drill once in an huge building I worked at and I bet it only took 10 seconds to check the traditional ladies block. It was so quick and easy.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 26/04/2024 23:36

TitusMoan · 26/04/2024 22:52

Did you hear the chaps on The Rest is History scoffing about TRIP and calling them Centrist Dads? Streets ahead intellectually of Campbell and Stewart. It was very funny.

Show quote history

And Tom Holland (historian, not actor) has supported JKR on Twitter/X.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 26/04/2024 23:43

TitusMoan · 26/04/2024 22:50

He bows to his daughter Grace on this kind of thing. If Grace changes her mind, he will too. But yes, he’s thoughtless and inconsiderate.

I very much hope that no harm comes to Grace. I had many stupid opinions when I was her age and I am lucky that most of them didn’t come back to bite me.

However, I also hope that something wakes her up to the danger she is advocating for women. A near-miss (with no actual harm) or listening to a friend who has experienced sexual assault, maybe- something that bursts the bubble of Islington privilege.

Jewel1968 · 26/04/2024 23:52

@Keeptoiletssafe I never thought of the floor to ceiling toilets door being an issue but it's obvious when you point it out. Are they H&S compliant?

I swim regularly and the changing rooms are mixed sex but the toilets within the changing rooms are single sex. I think it's because the main changing room is very open with cubicles. I am used to the mixed sex changing rooms.

I have mixed sex toilets at work with the floor to ceiling doors and I don't like them.

On the subject of Alastair I don't think he is persuadable. I think Rory might be.

I guess it might be worth pointing out that it's not men's views that are of interest because they are unlikely to have concerns. I wonder whether the women in his life have a different view.

Violetparis · 27/04/2024 00:08

Loads of negative comments on his post on Twitter/X.

Tinysoxx · 27/04/2024 00:09

I ‘saved’ a student who had choked on her own vomit in a nightclub toilet cubicle once. We saw a blue hand sticking out of the door gap. Between my friends and I we climbed over and pulled her away from the door to open it, got her out and cleaned the vomit from her mouth. Called the staff and they called an ambulance. I feel bad now but we were all a bit drunk and so we went back clubbing. I had forgotten all about it for years. I hope she was ok.

Original poster
MrsLeonFarrell · 27/04/2024 07:41

TitusMoan · 26/04/2024 22:52

Did you hear the chaps on The Rest is History scoffing about TRIP and calling them Centrist Dads? Streets ahead intellectually of Campbell and Stewart. It was very funny.

Show quote history

Love their podcast, which episode was that?

OP posts:
SinnerBoy · 27/04/2024 07:53

Stripybasket · Yesterday 20:36

There's an absolute arsehole on the thread who is driving me mad. Honestly what is wrong with people?

Could you link to it, please? I'm rubbish at finding things on Twitter, even my own posts!