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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
Bigcoatlady · 24/04/2024 15:01

LilyBartsHatShop · 24/04/2024 14:37

@Bigcoatlady "Indeed levels of violence in our women only accommodation are vastly higher than in our male only accommodation."
This is a throwback to a much earlier post on this thread, but this claim is so unlikely to be true I want to draw attention to it.

Have you ever worked with severely traumatised women?

Its literally my job. I both volunteer in the sector and work in adolescent MH with predominantly young women. Day in, day out. Trust me we face a lot of violence.

I did not say the violence was perpetrated by women - although some is. I said that placing highly vulnerable and distressed women together is not good for their collective safety as they tend to engage in high risk behaviours like re-entering violent relationships and bringing male partners with a history of violence into the property, taking street drugs and trying to sell drugs and selling sex all of which bring them into contact with violent men.

All of these are reasons why women are, in my view, safer if they are offered single occupancy accommodation with good support. But its almost impossible to secure funding for this model currently.

I am not judging traumatised women for engaging in these high risk behaviours either. They ahve been hurt again and again and again and have very low self-esteem and need robust stable therapeutic support to make safer, stronger relationships. Until then dulling that pain with drugs, returning to partners who make them feel valued briefly and securing income through sex are all consistent with how devalued they feel.

Bigcoatlady · 24/04/2024 15:20

@MissScarletInTheBallroom sorry I think this is getting confusing because I was replying to an earlier post that was specifically about who uses which bathroom. And I was making the point that whilst the EA protects people who have undergone GR or propose to undergo GR it does nothing for this large class of youngsters coming up behind us - who do want to be flexible in their bathroom use, who either don't recognise the categories applying to them or may feel more male and more female depending on the day of the week. I termed this the 'who's behind the door problem'.

I honestly don't know when NB people encounter discrimination or what that would mean. My point was the EA doesn't cover them. Like you I do not see how it could. And I tend to agree with the critics that say it probably couldn't - that the category of gender dissolves when it comes into contact with people who say they cannot apply it to themselves.

Where does that leave anti discrimination law? Not sure but its not my problem as I'm neither NB nor an activist on their behalf. BUT it is a problem for women who feel strongly about maintaining bathrooms as single sex spaces and only encountering people without penises behind the door which was the original discussion, which was about women's rights, not NB people's rights.

We could amend the GRA and EA so GRC were only issued to people who had undergone surgery AND the EA only applied AFTER a GRC has been obtained. Thus only people born without penises or who had had their penises removed would be able to rely on the legal right to use women's bathrooms. But this is a very radical reform. It isn't one I favour. But equally at a personal level I don't feel concerned about the occasional person with a penis using the bathroom I use.

I still care that other women should not feel worried using bathrooms - caring about women's feelings is my job afterall. Like you I agree we should be able to respect transwomens rights whilst protecting womens rights and I feel all the solutions here are imperfect. But its limited to this issue.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2024 15:32

@Bigcoatlady Thanks for the explanation.

On the one hand I feel that people who believe they don't "feel either male or female" kiiind of need to get over themselves when it comes to toilets. Toilets aren't supposed to match any kind of gender identity. They are supposed to be functional, not affirming. There are toilets for male people with penises who can pee into a urinal and there are toilets for female people with uteruses who need cubicles for multiple bodily functions, not just for having a poo, and these cubicles need to contain sanitary bins. Everyone is male or female as a matter of fact, regardless of how they identify, and there is no actual evidence of any harm caused to people with non standard gender identities from being forced to use toilets which don't "match their identity".

On the other hand, I think it's becoming increasingly obvious that we need some kind of third spaces in order to protect single sex spaces for those who need them. So in that respect, maybe it would be helpful to provide alternative spaces for anyone who for whatever reason doesn't feel comfortable using facilities for their own biological sex. I suspect people like Laurie Penny would probably still use the women's toilets though. Which would obviously be fine.

I don't think making rules about the use of single sex spaces according to who has had what surgery or got a GRC is remotely workable since nobody is checking either genital status or GRCs on toilet doors. That's why single sex needs to mean single biological sex, not legal sex.

Merrymouse · 24/04/2024 15:44

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2024 15:32

@Bigcoatlady Thanks for the explanation.

On the one hand I feel that people who believe they don't "feel either male or female" kiiind of need to get over themselves when it comes to toilets. Toilets aren't supposed to match any kind of gender identity. They are supposed to be functional, not affirming. There are toilets for male people with penises who can pee into a urinal and there are toilets for female people with uteruses who need cubicles for multiple bodily functions, not just for having a poo, and these cubicles need to contain sanitary bins. Everyone is male or female as a matter of fact, regardless of how they identify, and there is no actual evidence of any harm caused to people with non standard gender identities from being forced to use toilets which don't "match their identity".

On the other hand, I think it's becoming increasingly obvious that we need some kind of third spaces in order to protect single sex spaces for those who need them. So in that respect, maybe it would be helpful to provide alternative spaces for anyone who for whatever reason doesn't feel comfortable using facilities for their own biological sex. I suspect people like Laurie Penny would probably still use the women's toilets though. Which would obviously be fine.

I don't think making rules about the use of single sex spaces according to who has had what surgery or got a GRC is remotely workable since nobody is checking either genital status or GRCs on toilet doors. That's why single sex needs to mean single biological sex, not legal sex.

Edited

Apart from anything else anyone caring for somebody of the opposite sex needs mixed sex facilities.

Imnobody4 · 24/04/2024 15:49

Just want make a point about the 'genie is out of the bottle ' with regard to toilets.
The Eq Act of 2010 was enacted by a Labour Party I was a member of. There was categorically no suggestion that this was intended to be single gender spaces not single sex.

Some posters suggest that society has undergone such a transformation in 14 years that all words and meanings have changed and this is the majority view so suck it up. ( it's a bit like we've decided to drive on the right side of the road now, most countries do. Road deaths don't matter)

If the Eq Act is considered ambiguous so is Labour's current position and they have had 14 years to clarify it.

Good article from 2016

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/juno-dawson-glamour-magazine-terf-gender-identification-feminism-germaine-greer-a7403016.html?utm

Suggesting that such concerns are exclusive to a subgroup of feminist fanatics is disingenuous and shuts down the potential for open conversation and understanding. Dawson’s assertion that women are simply upset about “my right to do a little wee or poo” deliberately undermines the validity of women’s concerns, mocking their genuine fears.

In writing this column, Dawson continues the age-old tradition of dismissing women’s fears as hysteria. The title even questions women’s credibility as feminists. “Call yourself a feminist?” it asks. I’d like to ask the same question of her.

How can Juno Dawson call herself a feminist when she's labelling women as TERFs?

Cameron looked at a collection of tweets in which the term TERF is used and noted, that it, 'quite often shows up in the same tweet as other words whose status as slurs is not disputed, like ‘b*tch’ and ‘c**t’. Other words that occur more than once or...

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/juno-dawson-glamour-magazine-terf-gender-identification-feminism-germaine-greer-a7403016.html?utm=

Cailleach1 · 24/04/2024 15:58

Her? Has Juno Dawson evolved into a woman? Lourdes, Fatima, Juno Dawson.

Bigcoatlady · 24/04/2024 15:59

Merrymouse · 24/04/2024 15:44

Apart from anything else anyone caring for somebody of the opposite sex needs mixed sex facilities.

Yes although when I thought about universal unisex toilets I remembered having three kids under five and dashing into an unlocked cubicle for a wee whilst instructing the four year old to stay by the sink, hold on to the double buggy and not allow anyone to steal her siblings! I'd never have fitted all of us in a single cubicle and I don't think I'd be happy leaving three under four outside in a 'universal' toilet facility, those I have used have proper doors which makes shouting to the four year old and making it clear I hadn't just abandoned my children that bit harder. I wasn't worried about men v women - just concerned adults feeling the need to help!

Of course, with just one kid or adult to care for mixed sex facilities are ideal.

RebelliousCow · 24/04/2024 16:03

BIossomtoes · 24/04/2024 14:07

That’s a very thought provoking post @MissScarletInTheBallroom.

Just to make it clear I have no interest in influencing anyone else’s vote. What I am concerned about is correcting misinformation about what a Labour vote implies - like they’ll bankrupt the country and they’re the same as the Tories. Clearly I’m talking generally here and not specifically about this thread. I hand on heart believe that Labour is constantly misrepresented on the trans issue and that’s supported by the presence of gender critical women in the parliamentary party.

The thing is that we really don’t know exactly what we’re going to get however we vote. I’m pretty sure most people who voted Tory in 2019 didn’t envision huge amounts of our money being used to send a few people to Rwanda, yet here we are.

All I can do in determining where my X goes is which party is most closely aligned to the ideals I hold dear. I’m really fortunate because I care passionately about enough issues for that not to make me a single issue voter.

You seem to be assuming that people who post here don't understand the issues at play for themselves; that they don't need you to clarify or dispel anything. Many who post here are actually quite politically sophisticated people, and are fully capable of deciding their own priorities ,and de-coding political spin of whatever colour or stripe. Indeed, quite a number are ex Labour party members and voters - with long histories in left type activism of one sort or another.

I suggest you are deluded when it comes to the reality of Labour's commitments to "modernising" the GRA and what that means - and in denial about the ranks of transactivist MPs ( which include my own); in denial about the influence still of Stonewall and other LGBTQ lobby groups on party policy going forward.

Or if not deluded then you simply don't care that much about it - certainly not in the way that most people who gather here do. You are also not the only person who thinks many different issues are important.

Dineasair · 24/04/2024 16:03

VimtoVimto · 22/04/2024 20:19

This is just supposition with no evidence either way.

Wales!

RebelliousCow · 24/04/2024 16:07

Bigcoatlady · 24/04/2024 15:59

Yes although when I thought about universal unisex toilets I remembered having three kids under five and dashing into an unlocked cubicle for a wee whilst instructing the four year old to stay by the sink, hold on to the double buggy and not allow anyone to steal her siblings! I'd never have fitted all of us in a single cubicle and I don't think I'd be happy leaving three under four outside in a 'universal' toilet facility, those I have used have proper doors which makes shouting to the four year old and making it clear I hadn't just abandoned my children that bit harder. I wasn't worried about men v women - just concerned adults feeling the need to help!

Of course, with just one kid or adult to care for mixed sex facilities are ideal.

Ideal for you, maybe......Then you could easily campaign for 'third' spaces alongside the existisng single sex spaces which most women value and require.

RebelliousCow · 24/04/2024 16:10

BIossomtoes · 24/04/2024 14:28

I care about public services, the environment, education and the NHS so for me it’s a single issue. I don’t frequent FWR as a rule so I haven’t been privy to those arguments. The only reason I’m here now is because this thread’s been moved.

Trans ideology and its consequences feed through into each of those areas of operation ( NHS, Education, Ecology, Public services)

BIossomtoes · 24/04/2024 16:11

You seem to be assuming that people who post here don't understand the issues at play for themselves; that they don't need you to clarify or dispel anything.

I was absolutely explicit that I wasn’t talking about people who post here. I said:

What I am concerned about is correcting misinformation about what a Labour vote implies - like they’ll bankrupt the country and they’re the same as the Tories. Clearly I’m talking generally here and not specifically about this thread.

I also pointed out that I generally avoid posting “here” and am doing so only because the thread was moved.

ThatPeachMentor · 24/04/2024 16:12

@BIossomtoes

I’m really fortunate because I care passionately about enough issues for that not to make me a single issue voter.

Are you suggesting other voters don’t care passionately about other issues?

BIossomtoes · 24/04/2024 16:17

ThatPeachMentor · 24/04/2024 16:12

@BIossomtoes

I’m really fortunate because I care passionately about enough issues for that not to make me a single issue voter.

Are you suggesting other voters don’t care passionately about other issues?

No. Are you suggesting that I’m not capable of saying what I mean and need you to interpret for me?

ThatPeachMentor · 24/04/2024 16:23

😂 What?

You said I’m really fortunate because I care passionately about enough issues for that not to make me a single issue voter.

With comprehension and logical thought applied, it appears that you are saying single issue voters don’t ‘care passionately about enough issues’.

Now if my logic is broken, please correct me on what you meant by

I’m really fortunate because I care passionately about enough issues for that not to make me a single issue voter.

BIossomtoes · 24/04/2024 16:27

I was talking about me. Not other voters. If I was referencing other voters I’d have mentioned them.

Underthinker · 24/04/2024 16:40

@BIossomtoes
Just as a hypothetical question. Is there a policy that Labour could propose, that was so bad that it could turn you into a single issue voter? Say for example Starmer took leave of his senses and vowed to legalise slavery or to build a wall between England and Wales. Can you imagine under those circumstances voting Tory, even knowing all the things you've disliked about them for years? Or maybe not even voting for them, can you imagine coming online to argue that you can no longer vote Labour until they reverse that policy? That's where many (not all) of us are.

DameMaud · 24/04/2024 16:59

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2024 12:32

Quoting the whole of this post, sorry, because I want to pick up on a couple of points here.

Regarding the different approaches of human rights organsations in the developing and developed world, this strikes me as part compartmentalisation, part pragmatism, in the sense of wanting to focus on what they see as the most serious threats to human rights.

In the developing world, there is no question that women and girls without access to safe, hygienic sanitation facilites are some of the most marginalised people in society. There is no equivalent in the developed world to the risks that women and girls without access to toilets must take when they need to empty their bladder or bowels, or change their sanitary protection. The risk of being raped whilst partially exposed in the open air is significant. And funnily enough, there don't seem to be many birth registered males identifying as women or girls in those societies. Trans activists will tell you that this is because it is too dangerous to be trans in these societies, without acknowledging that it is too dangerous to be female in these societies, but women and girls have no choice. I think international human rights organisations take a more reality-based, sex-realist approach to issues arising in those countries because there is no doubt that these women and girls are the most marginalised, and because there is no significant trans population with competing needs. They take a different approach in developed countries, where women and girls aren't being confined to menstrual huts or at serious risk of being raped every time they need to use the toilet, and where the prevailing narrative is that the trans population - which is much more significant in developed countries than it is in developing countries - is the most oppressed and marginalised.

I think, however, that it is dangerous to take a view that just because women and girls are better protected in countries like the UK than they are in developing countries, that they are not oppressed or discriminated against. That is a kind of complacency we cannot afford.

Regarding the views of certain posters in this thread and others, I would prefer to call them "pro Labour" than trans activist. I do take your point that when certain information is known, for example about the impact on women of not having access to single sex rape crisis support, if you fail to adopt a pro women stance, you are by default adopting a pro trans stance. Because the pro trans stance is that which is adopted by most organisations today, which is why women don't have access to single sex support, and so either you accept the status quo or you stand up and say "this is wrong".

I think what frustrates me about the political aspect of this debate is the implication that any woman who feels unable to vote Labour due to their policy positions on sex and gender is either an idiot or a closeted Tory.

That is absolutely not the right way to convince people of your point of view.

It's 14 years since Gordon Brown called Gillian Duffy a "bigoted woman" for being concerned about immigration. It's nearly 10 years since the "metropolitan elite" started openly sneering at the stupid idiots who wanted to leave the EU.

Have we not all learned by now that saying that someone only holds the stance they hold because they are either too stupid to understand the issues at stake or because it is a pathetic figleaf to conceal the fact that they are a raging right wing bigot is absolutely not going to bring them round to your point of view?

If I wanted to persuade someone to vote Labour despite their policy positions on sex and gender, I would say something like this:

"I understand why you feel the way you do about single sex spaces, transgender healthcare and the risk of self ID. Of course everybody's rights should be fairly balanced, and if people don't feel that Labour has got the balance right between trans rights and women's rights, that's something Labour needs to address. But there's still quite a way to go until the general election and this debate is rapidly evolving. A few years ago the Tories wanted to bring in self ID and a trans inclusive conversion therapy ban. They scrapped those policies. Labour does seem to still be more in favour of those policies but there's been a lot of position shifting over recent months and weeks, particularly since the Cass report came out. There's still room for their position to shift further as we get closer to the election. So perhaps you should keep an open mind at this stage and judge them on the contents of their election manifesto when it actually comes out. And do write to your Labour candidate about this, and raise it with anyone who knocks on your door. Make your views heard!"

And then I would be writing to my own Labour MP or candidate, and anyone else in the Labour party I could think of, saying, "I fully plan to vote Labour in the next election but when I talk to other people I'm hearing so many concerns about this gender issue. They don't know what you mean when you say you've dropped plans for self ID but still plan to modernise the Gender Recognition Act, or when you say you will implement the recommendations in the Cass report but still plan to introduce a trans conversion therapy ban. A lot of women would really like to see the Equality Act clarified so that they know that biological sex is actually a protected category. You could win over these undecided voters by taking a more pro-woman approach than you currently are. Women are 51% of the electorate, don't forget."

At the end of the day, it's not up to women to put their concerns to one side so they can vote for Labour. It's up to Labour to come up with policies which give women the confidence they need to be able to vote for Labour, without worrying that Labour will then implement all these pro-trans/anti-woman policies they've been equivocating about as soon as they get into power.

Because Labour have form for this. In 2017 they sat on the fence over Brexit, saying they would implement the result of the referendum to satisfy leavers whilst leaving just enough doubt in the minds of remainers to get them to vote Labour in the hopes of getting a soft Brexit. And then after the election, all those remainers who had lent their votes to Labour were told they had voted to "get Brexit done" and had to sit back and watch as Labour did very little to stop the UK from hurtling towards the cliff edge.

So, no, I don't trust Labour. For me, vague statements about self ID not being a priority and implementing the Cass report are not unequivocal enough to satisfy me that it is safe to vote for Labour. I don't want to vote Labour and then be told, a few weeks later, that this means I believe trans women are women, support self ID and want a trans inclusive conversion therapy ban, because Labour have been clear that these are its positions. In fact, in the absence of a clear statement that Labour's position has changed and a commitment not to do these things, I consider that by voting Labour I would be voting for those things.

Edited

Following this thread with interest.
Just quoting and commenting here so I can save and find this excellent post for future reference.

Thank you MissScarlet.

  • *You are such a clear thinker and communicator!
ThatPeachMentor · 24/04/2024 17:01

‘I’m really fortunate because I care passionately about enough issues for that not to make me a single issue voter.’

‘I was talking about me. Not other voters. If I was referencing other voters I’d have mentioned them’

No. From You saying that You care passionately about enough issues for that not to make You a single issue voter, it is reasonable to deduce that You think people who Are single issue voters, don’t care passionately about enough issues.

But it’s ok, logic doesn’t seem to be a huge deal to people who can’t see why This single issue is important enough for some people to vote on.

After all, where’s the logic in saying some women have penises?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2024 17:21

ThatPeachMentor · 24/04/2024 17:01

‘I’m really fortunate because I care passionately about enough issues for that not to make me a single issue voter.’

‘I was talking about me. Not other voters. If I was referencing other voters I’d have mentioned them’

No. From You saying that You care passionately about enough issues for that not to make You a single issue voter, it is reasonable to deduce that You think people who Are single issue voters, don’t care passionately about enough issues.

But it’s ok, logic doesn’t seem to be a huge deal to people who can’t see why This single issue is important enough for some people to vote on.

After all, where’s the logic in saying some women have penises?

Indeed.

And for me, to paraphrase the magnificent Sall Grover again, it's also a credibility issue.

Do I want people who say something as mental as "women can have penises" in charge of the country?

Not really, to be honest.

AdamRyan · 24/04/2024 17:31

lifeturnsonadime · 24/04/2024 09:57

There's a fair amount of hypocrisy going on.

Only one 'side' of this argument is doing the reporting.

I reported you for calling me a TRA repeatedly. It is incorrect and offensive. If anyone calls me it again I will report them too.

Talk guidelines are to be respectful to each other and no personal attacks. I've told you repeatedly I'm not a TRA and find it offensive and you persist.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 24/04/2024 17:39

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2024 12:32

Quoting the whole of this post, sorry, because I want to pick up on a couple of points here.

Regarding the different approaches of human rights organsations in the developing and developed world, this strikes me as part compartmentalisation, part pragmatism, in the sense of wanting to focus on what they see as the most serious threats to human rights.

In the developing world, there is no question that women and girls without access to safe, hygienic sanitation facilites are some of the most marginalised people in society. There is no equivalent in the developed world to the risks that women and girls without access to toilets must take when they need to empty their bladder or bowels, or change their sanitary protection. The risk of being raped whilst partially exposed in the open air is significant. And funnily enough, there don't seem to be many birth registered males identifying as women or girls in those societies. Trans activists will tell you that this is because it is too dangerous to be trans in these societies, without acknowledging that it is too dangerous to be female in these societies, but women and girls have no choice. I think international human rights organisations take a more reality-based, sex-realist approach to issues arising in those countries because there is no doubt that these women and girls are the most marginalised, and because there is no significant trans population with competing needs. They take a different approach in developed countries, where women and girls aren't being confined to menstrual huts or at serious risk of being raped every time they need to use the toilet, and where the prevailing narrative is that the trans population - which is much more significant in developed countries than it is in developing countries - is the most oppressed and marginalised.

I think, however, that it is dangerous to take a view that just because women and girls are better protected in countries like the UK than they are in developing countries, that they are not oppressed or discriminated against. That is a kind of complacency we cannot afford.

Regarding the views of certain posters in this thread and others, I would prefer to call them "pro Labour" than trans activist. I do take your point that when certain information is known, for example about the impact on women of not having access to single sex rape crisis support, if you fail to adopt a pro women stance, you are by default adopting a pro trans stance. Because the pro trans stance is that which is adopted by most organisations today, which is why women don't have access to single sex support, and so either you accept the status quo or you stand up and say "this is wrong".

I think what frustrates me about the political aspect of this debate is the implication that any woman who feels unable to vote Labour due to their policy positions on sex and gender is either an idiot or a closeted Tory.

That is absolutely not the right way to convince people of your point of view.

It's 14 years since Gordon Brown called Gillian Duffy a "bigoted woman" for being concerned about immigration. It's nearly 10 years since the "metropolitan elite" started openly sneering at the stupid idiots who wanted to leave the EU.

Have we not all learned by now that saying that someone only holds the stance they hold because they are either too stupid to understand the issues at stake or because it is a pathetic figleaf to conceal the fact that they are a raging right wing bigot is absolutely not going to bring them round to your point of view?

If I wanted to persuade someone to vote Labour despite their policy positions on sex and gender, I would say something like this:

"I understand why you feel the way you do about single sex spaces, transgender healthcare and the risk of self ID. Of course everybody's rights should be fairly balanced, and if people don't feel that Labour has got the balance right between trans rights and women's rights, that's something Labour needs to address. But there's still quite a way to go until the general election and this debate is rapidly evolving. A few years ago the Tories wanted to bring in self ID and a trans inclusive conversion therapy ban. They scrapped those policies. Labour does seem to still be more in favour of those policies but there's been a lot of position shifting over recent months and weeks, particularly since the Cass report came out. There's still room for their position to shift further as we get closer to the election. So perhaps you should keep an open mind at this stage and judge them on the contents of their election manifesto when it actually comes out. And do write to your Labour candidate about this, and raise it with anyone who knocks on your door. Make your views heard!"

And then I would be writing to my own Labour MP or candidate, and anyone else in the Labour party I could think of, saying, "I fully plan to vote Labour in the next election but when I talk to other people I'm hearing so many concerns about this gender issue. They don't know what you mean when you say you've dropped plans for self ID but still plan to modernise the Gender Recognition Act, or when you say you will implement the recommendations in the Cass report but still plan to introduce a trans conversion therapy ban. A lot of women would really like to see the Equality Act clarified so that they know that biological sex is actually a protected category. You could win over these undecided voters by taking a more pro-woman approach than you currently are. Women are 51% of the electorate, don't forget."

At the end of the day, it's not up to women to put their concerns to one side so they can vote for Labour. It's up to Labour to come up with policies which give women the confidence they need to be able to vote for Labour, without worrying that Labour will then implement all these pro-trans/anti-woman policies they've been equivocating about as soon as they get into power.

Because Labour have form for this. In 2017 they sat on the fence over Brexit, saying they would implement the result of the referendum to satisfy leavers whilst leaving just enough doubt in the minds of remainers to get them to vote Labour in the hopes of getting a soft Brexit. And then after the election, all those remainers who had lent their votes to Labour were told they had voted to "get Brexit done" and had to sit back and watch as Labour did very little to stop the UK from hurtling towards the cliff edge.

So, no, I don't trust Labour. For me, vague statements about self ID not being a priority and implementing the Cass report are not unequivocal enough to satisfy me that it is safe to vote for Labour. I don't want to vote Labour and then be told, a few weeks later, that this means I believe trans women are women, support self ID and want a trans inclusive conversion therapy ban, because Labour have been clear that these are its positions. In fact, in the absence of a clear statement that Labour's position has changed and a commitment not to do these things, I consider that by voting Labour I would be voting for those things.

Edited

This whole post is basically "if you disagree with me I'll have a tantrum and break things and it will be your fault!"
I'm pretty fed up of the child like blaming on "metropolitan elite", "left wing saying we are bigots" etc.

People are grown ups, they have agency. They can vote how they choose. Healthy debate is necessary for democracy. Trying to shut people down with threats of retaliation (by a group of people, not you in particular) isn't healthy.

OP posts:
Bigcoatlady · 24/04/2024 17:41

RebelliousCow · 24/04/2024 16:07

Ideal for you, maybe......Then you could easily campaign for 'third' spaces alongside the existisng single sex spaces which most women value and require.

Edited

I don't follow? My point was they were not ideal for me. As a mother of three children under five I valued the single sex space. Did you read my post?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2024 17:42

AdamRyan · 24/04/2024 17:39

This whole post is basically "if you disagree with me I'll have a tantrum and break things and it will be your fault!"
I'm pretty fed up of the child like blaming on "metropolitan elite", "left wing saying we are bigots" etc.

People are grown ups, they have agency. They can vote how they choose. Healthy debate is necessary for democracy. Trying to shut people down with threats of retaliation (by a group of people, not you in particular) isn't healthy.

I have no idea how your comment relates to anything I wrote in that post. If that's what you took from it then I wonder if there is any hope for you.

Women who don't want to vote Labour because of their stance on sex and gender issues aren't the ones trying to shut down debate.

We aren't the ones whose stance has literally been "no debate".

AdamRyan · 24/04/2024 17:43

ThatPeachMentor · 24/04/2024 16:23

😂 What?

You said I’m really fortunate because I care passionately about enough issues for that not to make me a single issue voter.

With comprehension and logical thought applied, it appears that you are saying single issue voters don’t ‘care passionately about enough issues’.

Now if my logic is broken, please correct me on what you meant by

I’m really fortunate because I care passionately about enough issues for that not to make me a single issue voter.

She clearly means she is fortunate enough to have more voting options than single issue voters Confused

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