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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2024 06:43

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 22:26

🙄
You need to read the context. I was replying to PP: It's not like in America, where the ones who know what a woman is want to take away their right to have an abortion.
I was pointing out that some of the "ones who know what a woman is" here are trying to erode reproductive rights.

I haven't seen the evidence of links between the US left wing and the UK left wing that I have for the Conservatives. But that's not entirely surprising because the US left is closer to a traditional UK Conservative than to Labour.

twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1662061344814768129

No, "trying" means you are actually making a meaningful attempt to change the law. Is anyone doing that?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2024 07:28

Bigcoatlady · 23/04/2024 22:45

You also omit 2.22 which says that the protected characteristic only arises if and when the person proposes to undergo the gender reassignment process although that process does not need to be medical and it does not need to be completed.

As a result young gender fluid and non binary people who have no intention of reassigning their gender arguably don't fall within the scope of the EA as worded. Some critics have argued staunchly for inclusion of non binary and gender fluid identities in law but others equally argue that to do so would miss the point.

What I understand from talking to my non gender and gender fluid colleagues and clients is that their self construct really cannot relate to binary sex categories and that discrimination in this context makes little sense as there is no meaningful comparator class. They are neither more or less male or female and cannot relate to those categories at a personal level and thus whilst they might perceive discrimination on the basis of their non-binary they would not be able to interpret sex based discrimination as it relates to them. That's confusing to me as a woman but since almost everyone I work with is neurodiverse - clients and staff - being confused is my normal. It would suggest as a vehicle for rights protection the EA as worded is less inclusive of current gender identities than might be assumed.

[On children you are right - the CoP is clearly highly inclusive of gender variant behaviour in children which creates it's own set of issues because gender variant behaviour isn't usually an indication of an intention to undergo gender reassignment in children. More recent DfE draft guidance on 'gender questioning' children in schools takes the opposite approach but will struggle with the fact that the latter is non statutory and the former is statutory. It was reported at the time the Depts own lawyers had pointed this out to them.]

See, this is where I think, before expanding the scope of the Equality Act or the Gender Recognition Act, we need to go back to basics and consider what this legislation was actually for.

People with protected characteristics have, to a greater or lesser extent, suffered discrimination as a result of their protected characteristics. That is what the Equality Act is supposed to address.

We can acknowledge that trans people have suffered discrimination for their decision to live their lives as far as possible as though they were the opposite sex, whilst also acknowledging the conflict of rights which arises if they are included in single sex spaces, services and sports for the opposite sex. The Equality Act does attempt to address this with its single sex exemptions, although many of us think it doesn't go far enough to protect women.

You can, as I do, totally disagree that a woman is something a male person can identify as, and still agree that someone who believes they identify as a member of the opposite sex should not be discriminated against on the basis of that.

But I have to admit that I struggle to see how this is relevant to people identifying as something other than either their own sex or the opposite sex.

What discrimination have people who identify as non binary faced, for example?

Most people identifying as non binary are young and from a generation where being non binary is considered somewhere on the spectrum from "a bit silly, attracting a few eye rolls" to "totally normal" to "fashionable". Older people who identify as non binary, such as Judith Butler, tend to exist in "progressive" enclaves where this is totally accepted.

Non binary people are not denied access to healthcare, or marriage, or parenthood, on the basis of their non binary identity. They are seen by most of the population as being male or female, like everyone else, but choosing to adopt a certain set of beliefs and/or fashion choices. But androgynous women and effeminate men have always existed. People who are part of particular subcultures, such as goths or punks, are probably more at risk of street harassment than non binary people, but nobody is talking about making that a protected characteristic.

If non binary people feel they are being discriminated against because their passport has to say either male or female, or because they can't change their birth certificate to say they are neither male or female, or because their children's birth certificates will list them as either a father or a mother, they're welcome to make that argument. But they need to be aware that what they are arguing for is a new category which should be recognised in law despite it not actually having any identifiable characteristics. Explaining why it is necessary is going to be a rather tall order. And of course it opens the door to hundreds of other categories being added, which seems unworkable. At least allowing people to be recognised as the opposite sex is limited to one particular identity being recognised in law, because there are only two sexes.

If non binary people feel they are being discriminated against in healthcare or the workplace, let's talk about that. Given how insistent the NHS seems to be on the use of inclusive language, it seems to me that non binary people's identities are already acknowledged and respected. As for the workplace, it's more nuanced. What is the actual issue? Are they being misgendered? Are people rolling their eyes? Are people saying they think it's all a load of rubbish? Because to a certain extent, there's not much you can do about that. Even people with religious beliefs, which are a protected characteristic, aren't wholly shielded from that. Do they believe they are being unfairly dismissed or not recruited in the first place because of their identities? Again, this is a thorny issue. Some employers may well admit privately that any CV with "they/them" pronouns on it goes straight in the bin, because they have previous experience of "they/thems" causing trouble with other colleagues if they believe their identity isn't being sufficiently respected. I don't know what we do about that. It's a problem that some members of the TQ+ community have created through their own behaviour, and even if the employer's actions are wrong, it's probably even harder to prove than it is to prove that they have discriminated against a 32 year old recently married woman because they think she'll probably have a baby soon.

At most, it might be helpful to have a court case or some guidance saying that other gender identities not falling within "gender reassignment" should be treated as protected beliefs. Then they would have the same (limited) protection as people with diverse religious or political beliefs.

But adding a new category for people with other gender identities, or even expanding the "gender reassignment" category to include them, seems to me to be going too far. In my opinion, only people who have historically suffered and/or are at ongoing risk of suffering actual discrimination due to their characteristic need to be protected under the Equality Act. Otherwise, we risk undermining the importance of the other protected characteristics, such as being pregnant, or black, or Jewish, or disabled, by equating them to having they/them pronouns.

There's an AMA thread at the moment by a trans man who has been "living as a man" for over a decade, was treated at the Tavistock clinic, has taken all steps to medically transition except for a phalloplasty, which he wants to have, and lives "stealth". He acknowledges that his sex is female and describes his deep distress at his female sexed body which has only been alleviated somewhat by being able to transition. He's a great example of the kind of person the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment" was designed to protect. I don't think we should be watering that down.

AdamRyan · 24/04/2024 07:40

FlirtsWithRhinos · 24/04/2024 00:55

Now I'm confused, because the post I quoted wasn't talking about why you will vote Labour. In fact, it didn't mention Labour at all. It was entirely concerned with the Conservatives.

Now I'll be honest here, I don't think you are confused about my point at all. I think you just can't acknowledge it because then you would have to admit to your double standards.

And of course that's ok when it comes to your vote. I'm not insisting that you have to have consistent criteria for your decisions. I was just surprised to see you applying that logic when you have previously and more than once rejected it when other women apply it to Labour.

However if you genuinely are still confused don't worry, just let me know and I will point it out to you next time you do it :)

Oh BTW I think you've misunderstood my point about the influence of the US Left. If you read my post properly you'll see I was talking about the social and cultural influence of US Left Wing rhetoric not some sort of backroom deal.

you say we can trust that Labour won't take further steps to prioritise the desires of trans identifying men over the needs and protections of women, even though some of their MPs openly support doing exactly this, becase it's not in their manifesto I haven't said this. I've talked about my own view and said that this isn't their policy.

, but we can't trust that the Tories won't reduce abortion rights because, even though it's not in their manifesto, some of their MPs openly support doing exactly this? This point is not linked to the first point and was made directly in response to another poster.

Regarding the American Right/Left, I was talking about the very obvious associations between sitting Conservative MPs and American right wing movements like NatCon and CPAC, when I said I haven't seen the associations. You said:
Genuine question - have you looked? As a broadly old school Liberal I've seen the culture wars and rhetoric of US politics increasingy informing and inflaming the authoritarian elements of the UK Left wing just as must as the authoritarian elements of the UK Right wing.

Interested in any links you can dig out to confirm your statement the Left is just as informed by American politics as the right. Because I think you are incorrect on that.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 24/04/2024 07:44

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2024 06:43

No, "trying" means you are actually making a meaningful attempt to change the law. Is anyone doing that?

Yes. Hence why I posted the links.

There is a group of almost entirely Conservative MPs trying to use a debate about decriminalisation abortion to get the time limit reduced to 22 weeks.

And another group supporting Heidi Crowter's bid to have TFMR post 24 weeks banned for Down syndrome.

Both active. There is a very long running thread about Crowter in FWR.

I'm not complacent about women's reproductive rights at all.

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2024 07:50

AdamRyan · 24/04/2024 07:44

Yes. Hence why I posted the links.

There is a group of almost entirely Conservative MPs trying to use a debate about decriminalisation abortion to get the time limit reduced to 22 weeks.

And another group supporting Heidi Crowter's bid to have TFMR post 24 weeks banned for Down syndrome.

Both active. There is a very long running thread about Crowter in FWR.

I'm not complacent about women's reproductive rights at all.

Nobody has actually put any proposed changes on the legislative agenda though, have they?

And there is no actual plan to do so, is there?

And the Tories will be out of power before the end of the year, won't they?

And even if the limit were reduced to 22 weeks, that would still only be 2 weeks earlier than the current 24 week limit in the Netherlands, the most liberal in Europe, and still 4 weeks later than the current 18 week limit in Sweden, the next most liberal. In most EU countries the limit is around 12-16 weeks.

So you can bet your life I'm more worried about what Labour might do than I am about a number of Tories I could count on one hand saying that the current, extremely generous, abortion limit should be reduced by a fortnight.

ThatPeachMentor · 24/04/2024 07:58

@AdamRyan ps. Please stop using nonsensical terms like ‘GC’. It means nothing. Gender is a social construct and critical means what in this quagmire of linguistic bullshit from the ‘gender ideology’ people.

Do you mean Biological Realist? As in understands biological fact?

AdamRyan · 24/04/2024 08:01

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2024 07:50

Nobody has actually put any proposed changes on the legislative agenda though, have they?

And there is no actual plan to do so, is there?

And the Tories will be out of power before the end of the year, won't they?

And even if the limit were reduced to 22 weeks, that would still only be 2 weeks earlier than the current 24 week limit in the Netherlands, the most liberal in Europe, and still 4 weeks later than the current 18 week limit in Sweden, the next most liberal. In most EU countries the limit is around 12-16 weeks.

So you can bet your life I'm more worried about what Labour might do than I am about a number of Tories I could count on one hand saying that the current, extremely generous, abortion limit should be reduced by a fortnight.

OK. I was responding to your comment:
It's not like in America, where the ones who know what a woman is want to take away their right to have an abortion.

The electability of "the ones who know what a woman is" wasn't entirely relevant to the point.

But let's leave it there. I'm fully pro-chouce, as early as possible and as late as necessary so unlikely to agree with your mindset regarding "its only 2 weeks".

Edited to add: "Generous" abortion limit? Strange turn of phrase. Womens bodily autonomy should be a right, not a privilege given by others.

OP posts:
Otter2 · 24/04/2024 08:04

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/04/2024 21:37

So just to be clear, you say we can trust that Labour won't take further steps to prioritise the desires of trans identifying men over the needs and protections of women, even though some of their MPs openly support doing exactly this, becase it's not in their manifesto, but we can't trust that the Tories won't reduce abortion rights because, even though it's not in their manifesto, some of their MPs openly support doing exactly this?

And the creeping Americanisation of elements of the Tory party means we can't take women's rights for granted, but women concerned that the creeping Americanisation of the Labour party means we can't take women's rights for granted are checks notes "pro-Tory/Reform posters pretending to be feminists"?

Edited

Exactly this!

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2024 08:23

AdamRyan · 24/04/2024 08:01

OK. I was responding to your comment:
It's not like in America, where the ones who know what a woman is want to take away their right to have an abortion.

The electability of "the ones who know what a woman is" wasn't entirely relevant to the point.

But let's leave it there. I'm fully pro-chouce, as early as possible and as late as necessary so unlikely to agree with your mindset regarding "its only 2 weeks".

Edited to add: "Generous" abortion limit? Strange turn of phrase. Womens bodily autonomy should be a right, not a privilege given by others.

Edited

@AdamRyan

I think you're being very disingenuous here.

Yes, the 24 week limit for having an abortion on non medical grounds is extremely generous, in the sense that it is as late as any other European country and later than almost anywhere else in the world.

In Canada, where there is no time limit, women seeking late term abortions frequently find that there is no doctor willing to perform one, so they are forced to travel to the US, where, depending on whether you live in a very red state or a very blue one, abortion may be completely illegal, or legal for any reason, at any time right up to full term.

I think your comments about Miriam Cates are highly misleading. She makes some very valid points about the value of medical oversight in the process and how some of the changes that have been put in place since COVID are not wholly positive. But "she wants to reduce the time limit" is how you're choosing to spin this. OK.

First of all, I think it's worth noting that Miriam Cates is a practising Christian. And yet, she's not proposing a ban on abortion or even a significant cut to the time limit. She's proposing reducing the time limit for a non medically indicated abortion from 24 weeks to 22 weeks given the increasing viability of premature babies born at that gestation. You can agree with her or disagree with her on that point, but I think it's fair to say that she is absolutely worlds away from conservative Christians in America.

France has recently been lauded for enshrining women's right to an abortion in the constitution. But the time limit in France is two months earlier than it is in the UK, and I can tell you now that there would be very little support for increasing the legal time limit to 24 weeks, or even 22 weeks.

When I was pregnant in France, I felt very strange indeed when I realised I'd passed the legal cut off for abortion but if it weren't for the scans I'd had and my lack of periods, I would have had no idea I was even pregnant. I got pregnant with my daughter on my first postpartum cycle after having my son, when I was still breastfeeding. Right now, I don't menstruate because I am still breastfeeding my daughter. I currently have a copper coil. But if for whatever reason my coil failed and I got pregnant on my first postpartum ovulation, there's a very real risk that I wouldn't realise in time to have an abortion in France. In my previous two pregnancies I started to feel movement at around 18 weeks and didn't start to show until later than that.

But you have to draw the line somewhere.

It is a nuanced issue and people will have different views which they are allowed to express.

My own personal view is that if a woman has not decided to have an abortion in time for a 22 week cut off point, an extra two weeks is unlikely to make much difference.

And there are also risks to the mother from setting the cut off point as late as 24 weeks. Not just the increased physical and emotional trauma of having to give birth at that gestation, which should not be underestimated.

I saw a thread on here a while back where a woman was agonising over whether or not to have an abortion and as she replied to posts it became obvious that she was close to the 24 week limit. Because she didn't want to deal with the situation that she was in, she had kept telling herself that she still had more time to decide, until suddenly she didn't.

I've also seen quite a few threads by women whose partners are trying to persuade them to have an abortion they don't actually want. Having such a late time limit gives those abusive men far longer to keep wearing their partner down to have an abortion, and increases the risk that they will finally get their way just before the limit and force their partner to have a very traumatic termination of a wanted, possibly already viable, baby.

It also massively increases the risk of sex selective abortion. Just about everyone finds out the sex of the baby at the 20 week scan these days, leaving an abusive man who only wants a son a few weeks to force his partner to terminate her pregnancy and try again for a boy. This is part of the reason why, in France, the legal limit for abortion is where it is, and why women who opt for NIPT are not told the sex of the foetus they are carrying.

So it is far from black and white, and rather than adopting an "as late as necessary" approach, I think we need to get better at ensuring that women have the support they need to make a timely decision.

BIossomtoes · 24/04/2024 08:25

With reference to your comment about Mordaunt potentially becoming leader of the Conservatives… stop blathering extraneous what ifs.

It’s a real possibility. “Blathering” - bit disrespectful, isn’t it?

ThatPeachMentor · 24/04/2024 09:02

BIossomtoes · 24/04/2024 08:25

With reference to your comment about Mordaunt potentially becoming leader of the Conservatives… stop blathering extraneous what ifs.

It’s a real possibility. “Blathering” - bit disrespectful, isn’t it?

No.

If you want to see disrespectful comments, there are plenty of other threads where I’ve seen them. Often on Labour supporting threads, where people disagree with Labour supporters. Their responses are pretty disrespectful. ‘Blathering’ would be a gentle rinse.

What can you do. Smile sweetly and carry on, like the sweet kind women we are.

lifeturnsonadime · 24/04/2024 09:06

Just beware that posters are reporting posts on this thread because they don't like the language being used.

Women are not allowed to talk freely when it comes to our rights distinct from men with gender identity.

We are not allowed to speak about what the real motives of posters might be and the tactics they are using when they fail to answer certain questions.

lifeturnsonadime · 24/04/2024 09:07

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2024 07:28

See, this is where I think, before expanding the scope of the Equality Act or the Gender Recognition Act, we need to go back to basics and consider what this legislation was actually for.

People with protected characteristics have, to a greater or lesser extent, suffered discrimination as a result of their protected characteristics. That is what the Equality Act is supposed to address.

We can acknowledge that trans people have suffered discrimination for their decision to live their lives as far as possible as though they were the opposite sex, whilst also acknowledging the conflict of rights which arises if they are included in single sex spaces, services and sports for the opposite sex. The Equality Act does attempt to address this with its single sex exemptions, although many of us think it doesn't go far enough to protect women.

You can, as I do, totally disagree that a woman is something a male person can identify as, and still agree that someone who believes they identify as a member of the opposite sex should not be discriminated against on the basis of that.

But I have to admit that I struggle to see how this is relevant to people identifying as something other than either their own sex or the opposite sex.

What discrimination have people who identify as non binary faced, for example?

Most people identifying as non binary are young and from a generation where being non binary is considered somewhere on the spectrum from "a bit silly, attracting a few eye rolls" to "totally normal" to "fashionable". Older people who identify as non binary, such as Judith Butler, tend to exist in "progressive" enclaves where this is totally accepted.

Non binary people are not denied access to healthcare, or marriage, or parenthood, on the basis of their non binary identity. They are seen by most of the population as being male or female, like everyone else, but choosing to adopt a certain set of beliefs and/or fashion choices. But androgynous women and effeminate men have always existed. People who are part of particular subcultures, such as goths or punks, are probably more at risk of street harassment than non binary people, but nobody is talking about making that a protected characteristic.

If non binary people feel they are being discriminated against because their passport has to say either male or female, or because they can't change their birth certificate to say they are neither male or female, or because their children's birth certificates will list them as either a father or a mother, they're welcome to make that argument. But they need to be aware that what they are arguing for is a new category which should be recognised in law despite it not actually having any identifiable characteristics. Explaining why it is necessary is going to be a rather tall order. And of course it opens the door to hundreds of other categories being added, which seems unworkable. At least allowing people to be recognised as the opposite sex is limited to one particular identity being recognised in law, because there are only two sexes.

If non binary people feel they are being discriminated against in healthcare or the workplace, let's talk about that. Given how insistent the NHS seems to be on the use of inclusive language, it seems to me that non binary people's identities are already acknowledged and respected. As for the workplace, it's more nuanced. What is the actual issue? Are they being misgendered? Are people rolling their eyes? Are people saying they think it's all a load of rubbish? Because to a certain extent, there's not much you can do about that. Even people with religious beliefs, which are a protected characteristic, aren't wholly shielded from that. Do they believe they are being unfairly dismissed or not recruited in the first place because of their identities? Again, this is a thorny issue. Some employers may well admit privately that any CV with "they/them" pronouns on it goes straight in the bin, because they have previous experience of "they/thems" causing trouble with other colleagues if they believe their identity isn't being sufficiently respected. I don't know what we do about that. It's a problem that some members of the TQ+ community have created through their own behaviour, and even if the employer's actions are wrong, it's probably even harder to prove than it is to prove that they have discriminated against a 32 year old recently married woman because they think she'll probably have a baby soon.

At most, it might be helpful to have a court case or some guidance saying that other gender identities not falling within "gender reassignment" should be treated as protected beliefs. Then they would have the same (limited) protection as people with diverse religious or political beliefs.

But adding a new category for people with other gender identities, or even expanding the "gender reassignment" category to include them, seems to me to be going too far. In my opinion, only people who have historically suffered and/or are at ongoing risk of suffering actual discrimination due to their characteristic need to be protected under the Equality Act. Otherwise, we risk undermining the importance of the other protected characteristics, such as being pregnant, or black, or Jewish, or disabled, by equating them to having they/them pronouns.

There's an AMA thread at the moment by a trans man who has been "living as a man" for over a decade, was treated at the Tavistock clinic, has taken all steps to medically transition except for a phalloplasty, which he wants to have, and lives "stealth". He acknowledges that his sex is female and describes his deep distress at his female sexed body which has only been alleviated somewhat by being able to transition. He's a great example of the kind of person the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment" was designed to protect. I don't think we should be watering that down.

I agree with every word of this post.

ThatPeachMentor · 24/04/2024 09:14

lifeturnsonadime · 24/04/2024 09:06

Just beware that posters are reporting posts on this thread because they don't like the language being used.

Women are not allowed to talk freely when it comes to our rights distinct from men with gender identity.

We are not allowed to speak about what the real motives of posters might be and the tactics they are using when they fail to answer certain questions.

Edited

Yes.

BIossomtoes · 24/04/2024 09:17

Just to let you know @ThatPeachMentor that I reported a post that called me a TRA. I won’t tolerate being called names. You’re pretty safe with “blathering”!

lifeturnsonadime · 24/04/2024 09:19

BIossomtoes · 24/04/2024 09:17

Just to let you know @ThatPeachMentor that I reported a post that called me a TRA. I won’t tolerate being called names. You’re pretty safe with “blathering”!

I didn't call you a tra I said refusing to answer questions about how many women and children it is acceptable to be harmed in single sex spaces is a typical TRA tactic!

But never mind.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 24/04/2024 09:23

You’re pretty safe with “blathering”!

oh the relief 😳

ThatPeachMentor · 24/04/2024 09:26

RufustheFactualReindeer · 24/04/2024 09:23

You’re pretty safe with “blathering”!

oh the relief 😳

😂🤓

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2024 09:48

lifeturnsonadime · 24/04/2024 09:06

Just beware that posters are reporting posts on this thread because they don't like the language being used.

Women are not allowed to talk freely when it comes to our rights distinct from men with gender identity.

We are not allowed to speak about what the real motives of posters might be and the tactics they are using when they fail to answer certain questions.

Edited

Are you able to say what specific language is being reported?

NoWordForFluffy · 24/04/2024 09:50

@MissScarletInTheBallroom, your posts are so considered and reasoned. Thank you for taking so much time to post.

JessS1990 · 24/04/2024 09:51

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2024 09:48

Are you able to say what specific language is being reported?

It might be calling people liars with no evidence?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2024 09:52

JessS1990 · 24/04/2024 09:51

It might be calling people liars with no evidence?

Is this your way of admitting that you have been free and easy with the report button?

ThatPeachMentor · 24/04/2024 09:54

This reply has been deleted

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BIossomtoes · 24/04/2024 09:56

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Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

lifeturnsonadime · 24/04/2024 09:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

There's a fair amount of hypocrisy going on.

Only one 'side' of this argument is doing the reporting.

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