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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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39
OldCrone · 24/04/2024 08:49

ButterflyHatched · 24/04/2024 02:44

The report was hijacked by anti-trans groups long before it was published. The mere fact of its commissioning has been used as a pretext for years. She's quite right.

Cass's findings do not indicate that Puberty Blockers are an inappropriate treatment; they acknowledge that some people have benefited from them and Cass herself grudgingly admits that she has spoken to people for whom they were the right choice.

The report advises caution and calls into question their suitability in all cases alongside the need for more research - which we've already known for over 30 years.

The report was hijacked by anti-trans groups long before it was published. The mere fact of its commissioning has been used as a pretext for years. She's quite right.

In what way do you believe the report was 'hijacked'? Used as a pretext for what?

The report advises caution and calls into question their suitability in all cases alongside the need for more research - which we've already known for over 30 years.

So they've had 30 years to do the research, but haven't done it. Why not? By now you should have 30 years of data and evidence of the benefits of sterilising these children. Why hasn't this research been done?

bombastix · 24/04/2024 09:04

EasternStandard · 24/04/2024 06:47

People will struggle because they were complicit

Butler shows that in that line

Her response in Parliament was utterly self serving. I am glad that the Speaker cut her off. I am guessing that Butler realised as well as the issue ar hand (misleading Parliament) that if she would like a Ministerial post then this kind of opposition laziness will not serve her career ambitions. What a piece of work

GailBlancheViola · 24/04/2024 09:09

The report was hijacked by anti-trans groups long before it was published. The mere fact of its commissioning has been used as a pretext for years. She's quite right.

How did 'anti'trans' groups hijack this report? You wouldn't be suggesting that someone of Dr. Cass stature has succumbed to influence and not been impartial would you? If you are that is a seriously libellous claim to make.

The sheer stench of desperation emanating from those that have promoted GI that they would traduce, abuse, threaten and attempt to discredit Dr Cass and her findings is very telling.

Kucinghitam · 24/04/2024 09:10

#OperationLetThemSpeak again Grin

NonLinguisticRhetoricIsMyKryptonite · 24/04/2024 09:31

This is an American book, and so must include a compulsory discussion of how to overcome the problems described.

Perhaps FWR might take time out from poetry volumes at some point and compile a UK collection of the tactic.

RedToothBrush · 24/04/2024 09:37

RainWithSunnySpells · 24/04/2024 08:44

'The report was hijacked by anti-trans groups long before it was published.'

The report gave hope to pro evidence-based medicine groups long before it was published.

I'm sure it was on this forum that someone mentioned just how long Lobotomies were performed and it was over a much longer period of time than I had imagined.

How anyone thought that a lack of long term studies and poor record keeping was going to hold up to looking at established practices of evidence based medicine is really beyond me.

Datun · 24/04/2024 09:37

OldCrone · 24/04/2024 08:49

The report was hijacked by anti-trans groups long before it was published. The mere fact of its commissioning has been used as a pretext for years. She's quite right.

In what way do you believe the report was 'hijacked'? Used as a pretext for what?

The report advises caution and calls into question their suitability in all cases alongside the need for more research - which we've already known for over 30 years.

So they've had 30 years to do the research, but haven't done it. Why not? By now you should have 30 years of data and evidence of the benefits of sterilising these children. Why hasn't this research been done?

In what way do you believe the report was 'hijacked'? Used as a pretext for what?

Indeed. A pretext for demanding evidence before they sterilise thousands of children?

Ffs. This tantruming and jumping up and down of adult men because they can't use the invention of 'trans kids' is getting really fucking old.

RethinkingLife · 24/04/2024 09:41

RainWithSunnySpells · 24/04/2024 08:44

'The report was hijacked by anti-trans groups long before it was published.'

The report gave hope to pro evidence-based medicine groups long before it was published.

I'm sure it was on this forum that someone mentioned just how long Lobotomies were performed and it was over a much longer period of time than I had imagined.

In the United States, approximately 40,000 people were lobotomized and in England, 17,000 lobotomies were performed. According to one estimate, in the three Nordic countries of Denmark, Norway, and Sweden, a combined figure of approximately 9,300 lobotomies were performed.[139] Scandinavian hospitals lobotomized 2.5 times as many people per capita as hospitals in the US.[140] According to another estimate, Sweden lobotomized at least 4,500 people between 1944 and 1966, mainly women. This figure includes young children.[141] And in Norway, there were 2,005 known lobotomies.[142] In Denmark, there were 4,500 known lobotomies.[143] In Japan, the majority of lobotomies were performed on children with behaviour problems. The Soviet Union banned the practice in 1950 on moral grounds.[144][145][146] In Germany, it was performed only a few times.[147] By the late 1970s, the practice of lobotomy had generally ceased, although it continued as late as the 1980s in France.[148]

From 1930s to 1980s as the most recent (in France).

Note those on whom lobotomies were most frequently performed. Anyone else shocked that these wretched procedures were disproportionately non-conforming women and gay men?

The use of the procedure increased dramatically from the early 1940s and into the 1950s; by 1951, almost 20,000 lobotomies had been performed in the United States and proportionally more in the United Kingdom.[6] A large number of patients were gay men.[7] More lobotomies were performed on women than on men: a 1951 study found that nearly 60% of American lobotomy patients were women, and limited data shows that 74% of lobotomies in Ontario from 1948 to 1952 were performed on female patients.[8][9][10] From the 1950s onward, lobotomy began to be abandoned,[11] first in the Soviet Union[12] and Europe.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy

Lobotomy - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy#Prevalence

Datun · 24/04/2024 09:52

Note those on whom lobotomies were most frequently performed. Anyone else shocked that these wretched procedures were disproportionately non-conforming women and gay men?

Fucking A. Sexism and homophobia again. Who'da thought it.

RedToothBrush · 24/04/2024 10:12

TRAs: Puberty blockers work, they are safe
Women: There's no evidence for that.
TRAs: But I wish I'd had / my friend wishes / my relative wishes they'd access to them, then life would be so much better
Women: There's no evidence it would be. What about the side effects?
TRAs: But look at how many young adults are so much happier now
Women. There's no evidence for that. Where are the longitudinal studies?
TRAs: We don't need longitudinal studies. They are distressing for trans people.
Women: Evidence based medicine needs actual evidence or its unethical experimentation.
TRAs: Its unethical and cruel to remove access to drugs for children. Think of the distress this is causing.
Women: You've made claims based on no evidence about the unproven clinical benefits of these drugs. We are not the ones experimenting on children. Who is being cruel here?
TRAs: But the children are old enough to understand what they are taking
Women: The medical professionals don't understand the effects of the these drugs because there is no evidence to demonstrate the effects of these drugs. Children can't possibly have informed consent in these circumstances
TRAs: You are being transphobic. I / They wanted these drugs and I / they couldn't have these drugs. These children are important to me because they demonstrate this is a real issue and trans people are real.
Women: These children are extremely vulnerable and have complex needs. Why is there such a high rate of comobidity of same sex attracted children, autism, sexually abused children, children who have been through trauma and children with other preexisting mental health issues?
TRAs: Its all caused because they are trans.
Women: Where is the evidence for this? Why are there so many detransitioners.
TRAs: There is no evidence that there are any detransitioners.
Women: Well actually there is evidence of detransitioners, although we don't have details of how many because you refuse to do longitudinal studies because you think they are transphobic. Perhaps we should do some research into detransitioners and their needs.
TRAs: But that would harm trans children.
Women: How do we know these children are trans and not just extremely vulnerable to promises of a solution to their immediate issues without thought to their long term health and social well being. You can't change sex, you can only change your appearance but this comes at a cost to your physical body.
TRAs: But I've / my friend / my relative taken hormones / had surgery and its not been bad.
Women: You / They are an adult (perhaps with children) and you've taken different drugs when the body isn't still developing.
TRAs: But it worked for me / my friend / my relative.
Women: This isn't evidence. This is ancedote. This isn't high quality research. This isn't eliminating the placebo effect etc. This isn't recording harms to others who it didn't work for, who matter too.
TRAs: But I.... This is transphobic and a literal attack on me and my existence. Trans health care is dreadful, I've had so many issues with my transition. We deserve good health care.
Women: So what side effects have you had? I thought you said hormones and surgery were great. We should maybe study this so we can improve trans health care through evidence based medicine.
TRAs: I didn't say I had / they had any medical issues.
Women: But you literally just did. Maybe we should do some research just to be sure so we don't harm anyone.
TRAs: YOU ARE TRANSPHOBIC.
Women: Oh look the Cass Review is saying everything we have been saying about evidence based medicine and the need for more research.
TRAs: WAAAAAAHHHHH. The Cass Review is biased. It didn't take into account enough low quality, poor research which is aligned with my / my friends / my relatives experiences. The outcome was highjacked by Anti-Trans activists.
Women: Do you actually know what evidence based medicine is, or why it is important and why its not transphobic because it applies to all areas of medicine and this is what we have been trying to say since day 1.
TRAs: YOU ALL HATE TRANS PEOPLE. YOU ARE ALL SO BIASED. HUFF HUFF. WAAAAAHHHH.

Every single fucking time.

Its just another bloody script.

GailBlancheViola · 24/04/2024 10:18

Spot on @RedToothBrush.

Datun · 24/04/2024 11:25

RedToothBrush · 24/04/2024 10:12

TRAs: Puberty blockers work, they are safe
Women: There's no evidence for that.
TRAs: But I wish I'd had / my friend wishes / my relative wishes they'd access to them, then life would be so much better
Women: There's no evidence it would be. What about the side effects?
TRAs: But look at how many young adults are so much happier now
Women. There's no evidence for that. Where are the longitudinal studies?
TRAs: We don't need longitudinal studies. They are distressing for trans people.
Women: Evidence based medicine needs actual evidence or its unethical experimentation.
TRAs: Its unethical and cruel to remove access to drugs for children. Think of the distress this is causing.
Women: You've made claims based on no evidence about the unproven clinical benefits of these drugs. We are not the ones experimenting on children. Who is being cruel here?
TRAs: But the children are old enough to understand what they are taking
Women: The medical professionals don't understand the effects of the these drugs because there is no evidence to demonstrate the effects of these drugs. Children can't possibly have informed consent in these circumstances
TRAs: You are being transphobic. I / They wanted these drugs and I / they couldn't have these drugs. These children are important to me because they demonstrate this is a real issue and trans people are real.
Women: These children are extremely vulnerable and have complex needs. Why is there such a high rate of comobidity of same sex attracted children, autism, sexually abused children, children who have been through trauma and children with other preexisting mental health issues?
TRAs: Its all caused because they are trans.
Women: Where is the evidence for this? Why are there so many detransitioners.
TRAs: There is no evidence that there are any detransitioners.
Women: Well actually there is evidence of detransitioners, although we don't have details of how many because you refuse to do longitudinal studies because you think they are transphobic. Perhaps we should do some research into detransitioners and their needs.
TRAs: But that would harm trans children.
Women: How do we know these children are trans and not just extremely vulnerable to promises of a solution to their immediate issues without thought to their long term health and social well being. You can't change sex, you can only change your appearance but this comes at a cost to your physical body.
TRAs: But I've / my friend / my relative taken hormones / had surgery and its not been bad.
Women: You / They are an adult (perhaps with children) and you've taken different drugs when the body isn't still developing.
TRAs: But it worked for me / my friend / my relative.
Women: This isn't evidence. This is ancedote. This isn't high quality research. This isn't eliminating the placebo effect etc. This isn't recording harms to others who it didn't work for, who matter too.
TRAs: But I.... This is transphobic and a literal attack on me and my existence. Trans health care is dreadful, I've had so many issues with my transition. We deserve good health care.
Women: So what side effects have you had? I thought you said hormones and surgery were great. We should maybe study this so we can improve trans health care through evidence based medicine.
TRAs: I didn't say I had / they had any medical issues.
Women: But you literally just did. Maybe we should do some research just to be sure so we don't harm anyone.
TRAs: YOU ARE TRANSPHOBIC.
Women: Oh look the Cass Review is saying everything we have been saying about evidence based medicine and the need for more research.
TRAs: WAAAAAAHHHHH. The Cass Review is biased. It didn't take into account enough low quality, poor research which is aligned with my / my friends / my relatives experiences. The outcome was highjacked by Anti-Trans activists.
Women: Do you actually know what evidence based medicine is, or why it is important and why its not transphobic because it applies to all areas of medicine and this is what we have been trying to say since day 1.
TRAs: YOU ALL HATE TRANS PEOPLE. YOU ARE ALL SO BIASED. HUFF HUFF. WAAAAAHHHH.

Every single fucking time.

Its just another bloody script.

that's uncanny!

And don't forget the suicide myth has also been debunked.

WallaceinAnderland · 24/04/2024 12:46

Tell me you've run out of arguments without telling me you've run out of arguments

Hilary Cass Interview in the Times
RainWithSunnySpells · 24/04/2024 12:49

I think when people bring up the concept of the 'trans child' to me, I might ask them to clarify what they mean. Is the child a transexual, a tranvestite, an AGP, a cross-dresser or something else?

binaryfinery · 24/04/2024 13:16

ButterflyHatched · 24/04/2024 02:44

The report was hijacked by anti-trans groups long before it was published. The mere fact of its commissioning has been used as a pretext for years. She's quite right.

Cass's findings do not indicate that Puberty Blockers are an inappropriate treatment; they acknowledge that some people have benefited from them and Cass herself grudgingly admits that she has spoken to people for whom they were the right choice.

The report advises caution and calls into question their suitability in all cases alongside the need for more research - which we've already known for over 30 years.

So you are saying that you have known for 30 years that the NHS was giving children a treatment for which for which there is no evidence base as to its effectiveness and for which clinicians could not tell patients what the adverse effects could be? ( As Cass herself put it).

You must have been in arms about that! Proper furious! What campaigning have you and all the others who knew about this for thirty years been doing on this? I am aware of the stellar work of Transgender Trend - were you involved in this too then?

ButterflyHatched · 24/04/2024 13:40

Datun · 24/04/2024 09:37

In what way do you believe the report was 'hijacked'? Used as a pretext for what?

Indeed. A pretext for demanding evidence before they sterilise thousands of children?

Ffs. This tantruming and jumping up and down of adult men because they can't use the invention of 'trans kids' is getting really fucking old.

Edited

I was a trans kid. One of the ones that received carefully supervised appropriate treatment, in full knowledge of its experimental nature, that has had an enormously positive effect on my life. One of the ones you claim doesn't exist.

The vast majority of us have never spoken publicly about our experiences because, well, why would you expose yourself to that if you don't have to?

RedToothBrush · 24/04/2024 13:43

ButterflyHatched · 24/04/2024 13:40

I was a trans kid. One of the ones that received carefully supervised appropriate treatment, in full knowledge of its experimental nature, that has had an enormously positive effect on my life. One of the ones you claim doesn't exist.

The vast majority of us have never spoken publicly about our experiences because, well, why would you expose yourself to that if you don't have to?

See above script.

OldCrone · 24/04/2024 13:50

ButterflyHatched · 24/04/2024 13:40

I was a trans kid. One of the ones that received carefully supervised appropriate treatment, in full knowledge of its experimental nature, that has had an enormously positive effect on my life. One of the ones you claim doesn't exist.

The vast majority of us have never spoken publicly about our experiences because, well, why would you expose yourself to that if you don't have to?

When you say you were a trans kid, what exactly do you mean?

Did you prefer the stereotypes of the opposite sex?

Did you hold a belief that you had a gendered soul that had been born in the a body of the wrong sex?

Did you have a pathological hatred of your body?

binaryfinery · 24/04/2024 13:53

ButterflyHatched · 24/04/2024 13:40

I was a trans kid. One of the ones that received carefully supervised appropriate treatment, in full knowledge of its experimental nature, that has had an enormously positive effect on my life. One of the ones you claim doesn't exist.

The vast majority of us have never spoken publicly about our experiences because, well, why would you expose yourself to that if you don't have to?

I don't think anyone here disputes that there are children with gender identity disorder. What we do dispute is that this is always caused by an innate ' trans' identity rather than by a complex range of causal factors. What we do dispute is children with gender incongruence will remain feeling like that throughout their life.

Its great for you that you feel your treatment has worked for you. But medical practice is not based on individual case studies. It needs a proper evidence based review over populations of patients. The evidence so far is that most children with gender incongruence cease to feel like this after puberty. The evidence of the current population group presenting at GIDS ( same sex attracted children, autistic children and children in care being massively over represented) suggests that for these children its not an innate, unalterable ' 'transness' which is causing their gender incongruent feelings, but something else.

Its great you feel treatment worked for you. But you surely do not want children who will not live with life long gender incongruence to be put on a medical pathway which will harm them?

And this is why Cass is rightly angry that people are spreading misinformation about her report. Because if that misinformation is believed, it will be children who are harmed as a consequence.

RethinkingLife · 24/04/2024 14:09

See above about the most likely recipients of lobotomies.

As per the Oedipus Trap article, there were patients who were grateful for lobotomies and for Freeman following-up on them. There is a marked poignancy about the close of the piece but I can't get it out of my mind that so many non-conforming women and gay men had this done to them from 'the best of intentions'. Children had lobotomies. The parallels are wretched.

Freeman didn’t only perform lobotomies; he was the operation’s foremost advocate. This brought him some prominence, and I suspect some reassurance (look, everyone else thinks it’s great, too!). But it meant that if lobotomy fell into disrepute, so would Walter Freeman.
What if you have already put your reputation and your sanity on the line? Well, remember that even if it would be shattering to realize you’d made a terrible mistake, it would be far worse to keep making it. Even with most of my sympathy reserved for Freeman’s patients, I can’t help feeling sad for that broken old man, at the end riddled with cancer and missing a significant chunk of his colon, yet still clinging to the wheel of his camper bus as though one more mile, one more case history, might somehow turn an atrocity into a triumph. In his desperation to become a medical hero, he had become a hero out of Greek tragedy: consigned to ignominy by his own hubris, and doomed to struggle against a fate that was inevitable.

https://archive.ph/HjXYo

Datun · 24/04/2024 14:10

ButterflyHatched · 24/04/2024 13:40

I was a trans kid. One of the ones that received carefully supervised appropriate treatment, in full knowledge of its experimental nature, that has had an enormously positive effect on my life. One of the ones you claim doesn't exist.

The vast majority of us have never spoken publicly about our experiences because, well, why would you expose yourself to that if you don't have to?

There's no such thing as a 'trans kid'.

Very rarely a child will have gender dysphoria, as a symptom.

Cass is merely pointing out that giving them drugs to mimic the opposite sex is not evidenced to help.

You claiming it helped you personally does not alter that.

Neither does your assertion that you live a life of isolation talking only to doctors with the sword of Damocles hanging over your head in terms of your health as a result of taking those drugs.

Condemning children to that future on no evidence is the scandal she has exposed.

ButterflyHatched · 24/04/2024 14:12

RedToothBrush · 24/04/2024 13:43

See above script.

In the exchange you just invented above, you have argued with an imaginary person who is making a string of flawed points that either have nothing to do with me and portray a completely different set of life experiences, or mischaracterise things I have said in the past, and then claimed that I'm following your script and thus you can dismiss everything I say.

You're aware that if you put words into someone else's mouth and then attack the position you just invented for them while dismissing anything they actually say, you're just arguing with yourself? Right?

If you want to have an argument with a generic 'TRA'-shaped cloud about talking points you think they might hold then I'm sure there are plenty of people on Twitter who will humour you but I'm afraid I'm more interested in discussing the experiences of actual real people affected by this report and the way it is being misused as a pretext to deny them meaningful and appropriate care.

ButterflyHatched · 24/04/2024 14:54

binaryfinery · 24/04/2024 13:53

I don't think anyone here disputes that there are children with gender identity disorder. What we do dispute is that this is always caused by an innate ' trans' identity rather than by a complex range of causal factors. What we do dispute is children with gender incongruence will remain feeling like that throughout their life.

Its great for you that you feel your treatment has worked for you. But medical practice is not based on individual case studies. It needs a proper evidence based review over populations of patients. The evidence so far is that most children with gender incongruence cease to feel like this after puberty. The evidence of the current population group presenting at GIDS ( same sex attracted children, autistic children and children in care being massively over represented) suggests that for these children its not an innate, unalterable ' 'transness' which is causing their gender incongruent feelings, but something else.

Its great you feel treatment worked for you. But you surely do not want children who will not live with life long gender incongruence to be put on a medical pathway which will harm them?

And this is why Cass is rightly angry that people are spreading misinformation about her report. Because if that misinformation is believed, it will be children who are harmed as a consequence.

Thank you for at least acknowledging - as Cass herself has conceded in light of the actual real people she has spoken to directly who can't be dismissed as statistical aberrations or missing followups - that this is a treatment that has a positive and overall beneficial, if imperfect, outcome for a subset of people who present with gender incongruence in childhood and continue to display it throughout their lives.

I am in no way advocating for this treatment to be given to someone who doesn't experience gender incongruence and won't benefit from its effects. No more than I'd advocate for any other treatment to be administered to someone for whom it is inappropriate.

I have no desire for anyone to experience gender incongruence, regardless of source. This particular treatment isn't for everyone, but it has helped hundreds of people - including myself - to significantly reduce the effects of hormonal changes that it would otherwise take years (or be outright impossible) to undo.

The Cass report doesn't claim that it is inappropriate to administer temporary endocrine interventions resulting in partial or complete pubertal blockade as a concessionary measure in lieu of sex hormone treatment. It acknowledges that some individuals have benefited from this treatment, while emphasising the need for a better evidence base to understand the long-term effects. It strongly discourages viewing this treatment as a one-size-fits-all solution.

I strongly agree with these findings and decry attempts to manipulate their recommendation for caution into promoting a blanket anti-transition agenda as much as I decry anyone claiming they are a universal panacea suitable in all cases.

LoobiJee · 24/04/2024 14:59

ButterflyHatched · 24/04/2024 13:40

I was a trans kid. One of the ones that received carefully supervised appropriate treatment, in full knowledge of its experimental nature, that has had an enormously positive effect on my life. One of the ones you claim doesn't exist.

The vast majority of us have never spoken publicly about our experiences because, well, why would you expose yourself to that if you don't have to?

that has had an enormously positive effect on my life.

I thought you’d claimed on various other threads that you’re living with a host of health problems and difficulties as a result of the treatment you chose to undertake?

RedToothBrush · 24/04/2024 15:00

ButterflyHatched · 24/04/2024 14:12

In the exchange you just invented above, you have argued with an imaginary person who is making a string of flawed points that either have nothing to do with me and portray a completely different set of life experiences, or mischaracterise things I have said in the past, and then claimed that I'm following your script and thus you can dismiss everything I say.

You're aware that if you put words into someone else's mouth and then attack the position you just invented for them while dismissing anything they actually say, you're just arguing with yourself? Right?

If you want to have an argument with a generic 'TRA'-shaped cloud about talking points you think they might hold then I'm sure there are plenty of people on Twitter who will humour you but I'm afraid I'm more interested in discussing the experiences of actual real people affected by this report and the way it is being misused as a pretext to deny them meaningful and appropriate care.

Yoda voice.

The lack of self awareness is strong in this one.

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