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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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48
WhyHuntSnails · 17/04/2024 16:28

IcakethereforeIam · 17/04/2024 15:58

I assure you, you can weaselly tell them apart also...<sigh>... not rodents.

<curls up and dies>

Oh good, another pedant got there first. Phew.

WhyHuntSnails · 17/04/2024 16:34

*With a couple of reasonable points from Stella Creasey about how scared 'gender confused' children are.

That's actually something that the government needs to address, too. This is a group of young people who've been fed scare stories about suicide and 'transphobia' that have certainly not helped.*

The worst affected young people we know are slightly older and have already started testosterone. Two have definitely had mastectomies; not sure about the others. I think they're all going to need some solid help in coming to terms with what they've agreed to.

Or they could go all Stephen Whittle about it and carry on assuring the world that drastic surgery, lifelong medication and early baldness is a fab way to live.

BonfireLady · 17/04/2024 16:35

nauticant · 17/04/2024 16:25

Thank you! How interesting...

This will either make me very cross "it's all so toxic.. blah blah utterfuckery and nonsense" or they will get to the nub of the issue and discover that they were writing everything to do with gender identity through a lens of belief not fact.
I am not holding my breath but I will try to keep an open mind.

Edited because I got cross already and what I wrote didn't make sense. Oops.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 17/04/2024 16:38

WhyHuntSnails · 17/04/2024 16:34

*With a couple of reasonable points from Stella Creasey about how scared 'gender confused' children are.

That's actually something that the government needs to address, too. This is a group of young people who've been fed scare stories about suicide and 'transphobia' that have certainly not helped.*

The worst affected young people we know are slightly older and have already started testosterone. Two have definitely had mastectomies; not sure about the others. I think they're all going to need some solid help in coming to terms with what they've agreed to.

Or they could go all Stephen Whittle about it and carry on assuring the world that drastic surgery, lifelong medication and early baldness is a fab way to live.

Christ.

WhyHuntSnails · 17/04/2024 16:47

We know a lot of neurodivergent youngsters, Arabella (one of ours has been in the SEN system since primary). That's probably why we have disproportionate numbers affected in our immediate circle.

Some have well-paid techy parents who have gone private for treatment as soon as the girls turned 18. I suspect they've got used to doing this for SEN help over the years.

SinnerBoy · 17/04/2024 16:53

IcakethereforeIam · Today 16:11

These kids really need to be stopped from going on reddit and other forums. I know MN is said to be an echo chamber but JC.

I don't think MN is at all, look at how many people post about how awful, wrong and bigoted the GC posters are. That doesn't happen on Reddit, posters trying to say GC things get banned.

Emotionalsupportviper · 17/04/2024 16:55

Snowypeaks · 17/04/2024 15:42

Words, in the mouths of the untrustworthy, are weasels
(Weasel Rapid Reaction Force gears up...)

Apologies to all weasels - I know you are mighty hunters and wonderful mothers etc, but your intelligence and agility have led to you being considered untrustworthy, historically speaking.
(Weasel Rapid Reaction Force simpers a bit and stands down...)

Edited

Phew!

Narrow escape there.

I would have deserved being ripped apart by weasels had I used that expression without qualification. You could have done it, too. You are fast and (when appropriate) furious and fear nothing.

(You are a very pretty colour, too. if you don't mind me saying so. Very pretty indeed.)

Emotionalsupportviper · 17/04/2024 16:59

ArabellaScott · 17/04/2024 15:51

I never anticipated feminism would require skills in Advanced Rodent Identification. It's astonishing how often it comes up.

I can contain myself no longer!

They are NOT rodents!

They are MUSTELIDS!

Entirely different branch of the evolutionary tree.

They eat a lot of rodents, mind you . . . and if you are what you eat . . . hmmmm🤔

Abhannmor · 17/04/2024 17:02

EasternStandard · 17/04/2024 15:05

This is the McCarthyism bit

Threatening your livelihood

People dobbing others in. To do with biological reality. It was extreme then and it is now

I can’t believe the way it’s taken hold and many are fine with that

Yes ...and in the arts and media world, dobbing people in opens an opportunity to take their jobs? That's certainly often the case in academe.

murasaki · 17/04/2024 17:09

SinnerBoy · 17/04/2024 16:00

murasaki · Today 15:39

A fellow poster who felt they had to leave that place after more than a decade. I was sad at first but no longer.

I felt pretty down at the time, but I stopped using it after about a week and haven't been back. Who were you there - if that's OK to ask!

Melpomene. Not sure why I changed back to a previous username for here, but hey ho!

RethinkingLife · 17/04/2024 17:14

IcakethereforeIam · 17/04/2024 16:11

These kids really need to be stopped from going on reddit and other forums. I know MN is said to be an echo chamber but JC. The families of these kids may not even know that they're fighting against constant affirmation and are constantly being undermined by the 'glitter family' (other struggling kids, be-kinders and miscellaneous weirdos) in their child's pocket.

Echo-chambers as distinguished from epistemic bubbles. With its insistence on evidence, citations etc. around some topics and on some sub-forums, MN is neither despite moderation and external interference influence. It's vanishingly rare for people with some perspectives to bring data and citations that are accurate to a discussion about evidence.

Something has gone wrong with the flow of information. It’s not just that different people are drawing subtly different conclusions from the same evidence. It seems like different intellectual communities no longer share basic foundational beliefs. Maybe nobody cares about the truth anymore, as some have started to worry. Maybe political allegiance has replaced basic reasoning skills. Maybe we’ve all become trapped in echo chambers of our own making – wrapping ourselves in an intellectually impenetrable layer of likeminded friends and web pages and social media feeds.

But there are two very different phenomena at play here, each of which subvert the flow of information in very distinct ways. Let’s call them echo chambers and epistemic bubbles. Both are social structures that systematically exclude sources of information. Both exaggerate their members’ confidence in their beliefs. But they work in entirely different ways, and they require very different modes of intervention. An epistemic bubble is when you don’t hear people from the other side. An echo chamber is what happens when you don’t trust people from the other side.

Current usage has blurred this crucial distinction, so let me introduce a somewhat artificial taxonomy. An ‘epistemic bubble’ is an informational network from which relevant voices have been excluded by omission. That omission might be purposeful: we might be selectively avoiding contact with contrary views because, say, they make us uncomfortable…

An ‘echo chamber’ is a social structure from which other relevant voices have been actively discredited. Where an epistemic bubble merely omits contrary views, an echo chamber brings its members to actively distrust outsiders.

[People in an echo chamber are alienated from outside sources. Outside is labelled as malignant and untrustworthy. So, for people like Limbaugh follower under discussion] exposure to contrary views could actually reinforce their views. Limbaugh might offer his followers a conspiracy theory: anybody who criticises him is doing it at the behest of a secret cabal of evil elites, which has already seized control of the mainstream media. His followers are now protected against simple exposure to contrary evidence. In fact, the more they find that the mainstream media calls out Limbaugh for inaccuracy, the more Limbaugh’s predictions will be confirmed. Perversely, exposure to outsiders with contrary views can thus increase echo-chamber members’ confidence in their insider sources, and hence their attachment to their worldview. The philosopher Endre Begby calls this effect ‘evidential pre-emption’. What’s happening is a kind of intellectual judo, in which the power and enthusiasm of contrary voices are turned against those contrary voices through a carefully rigged internal structure of belief.

https://aeon.co/essays/why-its-as-hard-to-escape-an-echo-chamber-as-it-is-to-flee-a-cult

Begby, Endre, 'Evidential Preemption', Prejudice: A Study in Non-Ideal Epistemology (Oxford, 2021; online edn, Oxford Academic, 18 Mar. 2021), https://doi.org/10.1093/oso/9780198852834.003.0007

<p><em>Photo by Jim Young/Reuters</em></p>

Why it’s as hard to escape an echo chamber as it is to flee a cult | Aeon Essays

First you don’t hear other views. Then you can’t trust them. Your personal information network entraps you just like a cult

https://aeon.co/essays/why-its-as-hard-to-escape-an-echo-chamber-as-it-is-to-flee-a-cult

BoreOfWhabylon · 17/04/2024 17:17

ArabellaScott · 17/04/2024 15:51

I never anticipated feminism would require skills in Advanced Rodent Identification. It's astonishing how often it comes up.

Not rodents @ArabellaScott , stoats, weasels, ferrets and the like belong to the mustelid family, as do badgers, otters and wolverines. They are carnivores and hunt and devour rodents.

BoreOfWhabylon · 17/04/2024 17:18

Ah, I see others got there before me Blush

duc748 · 17/04/2024 17:21

murasaki · 17/04/2024 17:09

Melpomene. Not sure why I changed back to a previous username for here, but hey ho!

[waves]

Hi, murasaki! I was/am moto748.

AdamRyan · 17/04/2024 17:26

RethinkingLife · 17/04/2024 17:14

Echo-chambers as distinguished from epistemic bubbles. With its insistence on evidence, citations etc. around some topics and on some sub-forums, MN is neither despite moderation and external interference influence. It's vanishingly rare for people with some perspectives to bring data and citations that are accurate to a discussion about evidence.

Something has gone wrong with the flow of information. It’s not just that different people are drawing subtly different conclusions from the same evidence. It seems like different intellectual communities no longer share basic foundational beliefs. Maybe nobody cares about the truth anymore, as some have started to worry. Maybe political allegiance has replaced basic reasoning skills. Maybe we’ve all become trapped in echo chambers of our own making – wrapping ourselves in an intellectually impenetrable layer of likeminded friends and web pages and social media feeds.

But there are two very different phenomena at play here, each of which subvert the flow of information in very distinct ways. Let’s call them echo chambers and epistemic bubbles. Both are social structures that systematically exclude sources of information. Both exaggerate their members’ confidence in their beliefs. But they work in entirely different ways, and they require very different modes of intervention. An epistemic bubble is when you don’t hear people from the other side. An echo chamber is what happens when you don’t trust people from the other side.

Current usage has blurred this crucial distinction, so let me introduce a somewhat artificial taxonomy. An ‘epistemic bubble’ is an informational network from which relevant voices have been excluded by omission. That omission might be purposeful: we might be selectively avoiding contact with contrary views because, say, they make us uncomfortable…

An ‘echo chamber’ is a social structure from which other relevant voices have been actively discredited. Where an epistemic bubble merely omits contrary views, an echo chamber brings its members to actively distrust outsiders.

[People in an echo chamber are alienated from outside sources. Outside is labelled as malignant and untrustworthy. So, for people like Limbaugh follower under discussion] exposure to contrary views could actually reinforce their views. Limbaugh might offer his followers a conspiracy theory: anybody who criticises him is doing it at the behest of a secret cabal of evil elites, which has already seized control of the mainstream media. His followers are now protected against simple exposure to contrary evidence. In fact, the more they find that the mainstream media calls out Limbaugh for inaccuracy, the more Limbaugh’s predictions will be confirmed. Perversely, exposure to outsiders with contrary views can thus increase echo-chamber members’ confidence in their insider sources, and hence their attachment to their worldview. The philosopher Endre Begby calls this effect ‘evidential pre-emption’. What’s happening is a kind of intellectual judo, in which the power and enthusiasm of contrary voices are turned against those contrary voices through a carefully rigged internal structure of belief.

https://aeon.co/essays/why-its-as-hard-to-escape-an-echo-chamber-as-it-is-to-flee-a-cult

Begby, Endre, 'Evidential Preemption', Prejudice: A Study in Non-Ideal Epistemology (Oxford, 2021; online edn, Oxford Academic, 18 Mar. 2021), https://doi.org/10.1093/oso/9780198852834.003.0007

Edited

Ironic

ArabellaScott · 17/04/2024 17:31

Carnivorous mammals are on a spectrum innit.

😁

Lion400 · 17/04/2024 17:35

ArabellaScott · 17/04/2024 17:31

Carnivorous mammals are on a spectrum innit.

😁

Oh sht.

Where does it start? Where does it end?

Can they change depending on How They Feel?

BoreOfWhabylon · 17/04/2024 17:36

True Arabella, and I suppose a mustelid might identify as a rodent in order to get closer to them.

Kucinghitam · 17/04/2024 17:37

ArabellaScott · 17/04/2024 17:31

Carnivorous mammals are on a spectrum innit.

😁

More importantly, were any of those mammals ever seen in the vicinity of a Person of Incorrect Politics? We can't identify them unless we know this vital information.

IcakethereforeIam · 17/04/2024 17:41
excuse me wolverine GIF

Who's going to tell Wolverine he's a giant weasel...and possibly on the rodent spectrum.

comfyoldcardi · 17/04/2024 17:48

IcakethereforeIam · 17/04/2024 16:11

These kids really need to be stopped from going on reddit and other forums. I know MN is said to be an echo chamber but JC. The families of these kids may not even know that they're fighting against constant affirmation and are constantly being undermined by the 'glitter family' (other struggling kids, be-kinders and miscellaneous weirdos) in their child's pocket.

I remember KJK saying "the call is coming from inside the house".

Emotionalsupportviper · 17/04/2024 18:37

BoreOfWhabylon · 17/04/2024 17:36

True Arabella, and I suppose a mustelid might identify as a rodent in order to get closer to them.

And a rodent may well identify as a mustelid in order to avoid being eaten.

Edited to add: Good luck with that, little rodent. I'll say a prayer for you.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 17/04/2024 18:39

duc748 · 17/04/2024 17:21

[waves]

Hi, murasaki! I was/am moto748.

Hello murasaki/Melpomene, I remember your name. I was Tricyrtis. After we were told to leave the other place I logged out immediately and think I looked back maybe once before I deleted my shortcuts. Missed it for a very short time but, in terms of pretty much everything, this place is far superior.

EdithStourton · 17/04/2024 20:31

WhyHuntSnails · 17/04/2024 16:28

Oh good, another pedant got there first. Phew.

Another relieved pedant here
Well done @IcakethereforeIam for taking one for the team.

Who knew pedants were so good at mustelid ID?