Debate happening in House of Commons: Victoria Atkins on fire

[BonfireLady]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/15/rishi-sunak-david-cameron-downing-street-general-election/

I have no qualms admitting that I sat watching the debate yesterday (finally had time to watch it on YouTube) with tears running down my face, thinking of the many years I’ve followed threads on here, LangCleg, Datun et al and thinking of the times I’ve had shit thrown at me just for daring to question let alone fully admit my GC position…I once posted on Instagram about standing with JK Rowling, defending her, and I received a slew of crap from TRAs telling me I had blood on my hands, and ended up being unable to post on there for a whole year. I didn’t post any hate that was literally all I posted.

I posted on here a couple of years ago about a girl who tried to attack me when I said I wouldn’t affirm if my child claimed to be trapped in the wrong body, I’d support and seek counselling for them, she went ballistic this was in real life it was terrifying.

I’ve shamefully bitten my tongue a fair bit - as they said in the House yesterday - there has been a ‘chilling effect’ and it’s been every where!

I’m so so thankful for everyone who has persisted at great personal cost and to all the posters making me feel like there is a safe space to hold these views and my sanity. I’ve honestly doubted myself thinking at times am I the baddie?? Am I on the wrong side?? But thank you everyone who has helped me maintain and uphold the truth I always knew would out.

@hazandduck no one should have to go through any of that just for raising legitimate concerns. So sorry to hear of your experiences. 💐

It sounds truly awful. Terrifying. 💐💐
And to think that the media organisations are still saying it's "both sides". That's not true and it's not the story.

Massive kudos to you and anyone else who has been through experiences like this. Hopefully the (im)balance will be addressed on the fallacy of "both sides" in the media at some point too.

I'm aware that I was a "middle ground"** style poster right from the start (and still generally am pretty "neutral" in tone most of the time, despite how angry I feel) and I definitely learned lots along the way from people who knew far more than I did - but at no point did I ever think it was "easy" (looking at you Kirsty Allsopp) to have these debates, at no point did I ever say people should only engage nicely (I valued all voices and all styles) and at no point did I ever, ever think that this was a "both sides" thing.

** For clarity, I never advocated for just a few (transwo)men in women's toilets/sports etc. I just valued listening to all sides, both IRL and online, so that I understood more about the issue. That was my "middle ground": how do we find a way forward where people who believe that we all have a gender identity, or pretend to believe this, can live alongside those of us who don't? When the red line is that their belief is never imposed on others in any way.

So sorry @hazandduck . What a dreadful experience. My own troubles were all online. I was piled on and booted from a couple of groups for supporting JK too.

Personally I have nothing to lose. But afterwards I had a panic attack about the possible bad consequences for my adult children who work in arts and media. So I changed my settings , blocked a bunch of people - and sites. Deleted Reddit and Twitter. Disabled FB. What strange times we live in.

💐

@hazandduck - that's awful and you didn't deserve it. I posted JKR's first essay about this on FB and was promptly jumped on by people saying TWAW. I'm actually a little grateful for that because it led me to go and find out more about the issue, which led to a much better understanding of it and led me to MN, where I found a lot of people much better at articulating the problems with it than I am.

I'm still catching up and watching the debate in bits and bobs. Enjoyed this from Victoria Atkins:

Interestingly, Opposition Members are chuntering from sedentary positions. I think that we can make a real change, but a little less sniping from the sidelines and a little more constructive work is needed.

"They don't like hearing their words back at them, Mme Deputy Speaker, they don't like it."

😁

Did she sing it in the style of Elvis?

A little less conversation, a little more action, please
All this aggravation ain't satisfactioning me
A little more bite and a little less bark
A little less fight and a little more spark

I'm really appreciating her approach. She's very good value to watch.

Holy moly, I missed this, from Lia Nici:

"Let’s be honest, Secretary of State, this excellent review exposes institutionalised grooming and abuse by so-called “professional” medical people. What is she going to do to make sure that people pushing this from day one are, as a minimum, now going to be on the sex offenders list and taken off being able to practise as medical people?"

(Response from VA:

"...this is about not just the debate within the NHS, but what happens online. I know that parents of children affected by this are very aware of the online “grooming”, as they describe it, of children on social media. I do not want to trespass for the time being on the regulators—we have already had some constructive conversations with them—but the will of the House is clear that we expect the report to be followed and clinicians to act on the basis of that evidence." )

That is scathing!

I'd never heard of Lia Nici, but I'll keep an eye open for her now.

Edit as autocarrot stuck its oar in

Marsha de Cordova with a good point re adult care (I'm c&ping from Hansard, so it's an approximation*):

'...does the Secretary of State agree that the review of adult gender services should take into account the number of patients with mental health challenges, such as depression, anxiety, autism, self-harm, eating disorders and many others? What additional resources will be put in place for mental health provision?'

*I was quite shocked to find Hansard was edited, rather than verbatim! But it is.

(and also nice to see MdC sitting with Rosie. I hope the MPs who've had such a rough ride are getting some support from their peers).

Always thought it was verbatim, too. @ArabellaScott .

I wonder who decides which bits to edit out/ paraphrase etc

https://hansard.parliament.uk/about

'Hansard is a “substantially verbatim” report of what is said in Parliament. Members’ words are recorded, and then edited to remove repetitions and obvious mistakes, albeit without taking away from the meaning of what is said.'

'Substantially verbatim' sounds to me like 'a bit pregnant', but there you go.

Can't help but agree with your comment there Arabella.

Wings over Scotland has been noting discrepancies between the record of Holyrood and filmed footage recently, as an aside.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-mutability-of-history/

hazandduck
I’m so so thankful for everyone who has persisted at great personal cost and to all the posters making me feel like there is a safe space to hold these views and my sanity. I’ve honestly doubted myself thinking at times am I the baddie?? Am I on the wrong side?? But thank you everyone who has helped me maintain and uphold the truth I always knew would out.

I totally agree with this, and I'm sorry you had such a shitty response from people. It really does frighten me how many people are ignoring common sense in favour of this, and then attacking anyone who points that out. It seems like some sort of collective madness.
I keep thinking this shouldn't be happening in an open democracy - people being attacked for disagreeing - and yet it is, time and time again.

... about supporting people who have gone through the process and are trying to detransition, she is absolutely right that they need particular care. I am actively looking into what NHS England needs to provide to look after the very complex needs that such people have.

Good to hear Atkins has detransitioners (and hopefully their families) in mind. There will need to be help, care and support for some who have been harmed and/or failed in recent years.

Robin Millar on Wales:

"...in Wales the pathway for young people diagnosed with gender dysphoria includes referral to gender services in England. The Cass report also warns against teachers being forced into making premature and effectively clinical decisions about affirmation, such as social transitioning, and yet that is implicit throughout the Welsh Government’s LGBTQ+ action plan and their compulsory relationships and sexuality education curriculum. Does the Secretary of State agree that these findings have relevance for the safeguarding of children in England and Wales? Does she agree that parents, teachers and health workers across England and Wales can expect politicians to take heed of these findings?"

The official report has totally changed the meaning, hasn't it @Arabella? Because yes - tone, and emphasis, DO matter.

Any actor (or indeed politician) can tell you how to completely alter the meaning of a sentence by emphasising a single word. And there are some sentences which can alter in meaning multiple times, because emphasising each word in turn changes what has been said.

(The classic example always given is "I didn't say you stole my wallet". Place emphasis on each word in turn, and see how the meaning changes. Words, in the mouths of the untrustworthy, are weasels*.)

*Apologies to all weasels - I know you are mighty hunters and wonderful mothers etc, but your intelligence and agility have led to you being considered untrustworthy, historically speaking.

Fortunately for me the Non-Crime Hate Speech laws don't extend to libelling mustelids.

Edit to add @ArabellaScott because otherwise no-one would know what I was replying to.

Providing hormone blockers to children is wrong; encouraging and giving cross-sex hormones to children is wrong; and encouraging breast binding for children is wrong. In the future, I believe we will look back on this scandal—and it is a scandal—with incredulity about how we did this to our children, especially our girls.

Thank you, Alexnder Stafford.

From me too. This is the scandal

Same @Abhannmor under a previous guise I was very involved. Twitter, campaigns, meetings, the works. I had a sudden panic about my husband and kids. It wasn’t just me that was at risk. I then took a job and it turns out that could be at risk if my true feelings were known.

anyway, I deleted everything connected to my public terfing. I still talk about it when the opportunity arises, but I’m not front and centre. I settle for gardening.

although I’ll watch at work, if the opportunity to use Cass to push back a bit arises I will.

It's a bummer @BritishBeatleMania isn't it. I felt like a terrible coward. It was a random comment by one of my kids that freaked me out . Basically ' I agree with Graham Linehan but I'd never say so in an open forum , I'd be torn to shreds' or words to that effect.
So I felt it would be selfish of me to carry on.

The kids said it would all go the way of Emo and such. But God it seems to take forever.

This is the McCarthyism bit

Threatening your livelihood

People dobbing others in. To do with biological reality. It was extreme then and it is now

I can’t believe the way it’s taken hold and many are fine with that