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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Surrogacy & GenderWoo now officially condemned in Catholic Doctrine

70 replies

NitroNine · 08/04/2024 13:23

The long-awaited Dignitas Infinita has finally dropped and, as the title says, it means that doctrinally, Catholicism is now officially anti-surrogacy & anti-GenderWoo. Not a huge surprise as the Church had been firmly leaning that way, but now there is a definitive position.

The relevant parts (should anyone be disinclined to read the entire thing) are:

SURROGACY:
48. The Church also takes a stand against the practice of surrogacy, through which the immensely worthy child becomes a mere object. On this point, Pope Francis’s words have a singular clarity: “The path to peace calls for respect for life, for every human life, starting with the life of the unborn child in the mother’s womb, which cannot be suppressed or turned into an object of trafficking. In this regard, I deem deplorable the practice of so-called surrogate motherhood, which represents a grave violation of the dignity of the woman and the child, based on the exploitation of situations of the mother’s material needs. A child is always a gift and never the basis of a commercial contract. Consequently, I express my hope for an effort by the international community to prohibit this practice universally.”[92]
49. First and foremost, the practice of surrogacy violates the dignity of the child. Indeed, every child possesses an intangible dignity that is clearly expressed—albeit in a unique and differentiated way—at every stage of his or her life: from the moment of conception, at birth, growing up as a boy or girl, and becoming an adult. Because of this unalienable dignity, the child has the right to have a fully human (and not artificially induced) origin and to receive the gift of a life that manifests both the dignity of the giver and that of the receiver. Moreover, acknowledging the dignity of the human person also entails recognizing every dimension of the dignity of the conjugal union and of human procreation. Considering this, the legitimate desire to have a child cannot be transformed into a “right to a child” that fails to respect the dignity of that child as the recipient of the gift of life.[93]
50. Surrogacy also violates the dignity of the woman, whether she is coerced into it or chooses to subject herself to it freely. For, in this practice, the woman is detached from the child growing in her and becomes a mere means subservient to the arbitrary gain or desire of others. This contrasts in every way with the fundamental dignity of every human being and with each person’s right to be recognized always individually and never as an instrument for another.

GENDERWOO
Gender Theory
55. The Church wishes, first of all, “to reaffirm that every person, regardless of sexual orientation, ought to be respected in his or her dignity and treated with consideration, while ‘every sign of unjust discrimination’ is to be carefully avoided, particularly any form of aggression and violence.”[101] For this reason, it should be denounced as contrary to human dignity the fact that, in some places, not a few people are imprisoned, tortured, and even deprived of the good of life solely because of their sexual orientation.
56. At the same time, the Church highlights the definite critical issues present in gender theory. On this point, Pope Francis has reminded us that “the path to peace calls for respect for human rights, in accordance with the simple yet clear formulation contained in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, whose seventy-fifth anniversary we recently celebrated. These principles are self-evident and commonly accepted. Regrettably, in recent decades, attempts have been made to introduce new rights that are neither fully consistent with those originally defined nor always acceptable. They have led to instances of ideological colonization, in which gender theory plays a central role; the latter is extremely dangerous since it cancels differences in its claim to make everyone equal.”[102]
57. Regarding gender theory, whose scientific coherence is the subject of considerable debate among experts, the Church recalls that human life in all its dimensions, both physical and spiritual, is a gift from God. This gift is to be accepted with gratitude and placed at the service of the good. Desiring a personal self-determination, as gender theory prescribes, apart from this fundamental truth that human life is a gift, amounts to a concession to the age-old temptation to make oneself God, entering into competition with the true God of love revealed to us in the Gospel.
58. Another prominent aspect of gender theory is that it intends to deny the greatest possible difference that exists between living beings: sexual difference. This foundational difference is not only the greatest imaginable difference but is also the most beautiful and most powerful of them. In the male-female couple, this difference achieves the most marvelous of reciprocities. It thus becomes the source of that miracle that never ceases to surprise us: the arrival of new human beings in the world.
59. In this sense, respect for both one’s own body and that of others is crucial in light of the proliferation of claims to new rights advanced by gender theory. This ideology “envisages a society without sexual differences, thereby eliminating the anthropological basis of the family.”[103] It thus becomes unacceptable that “some ideologies of this sort, which seek to respond to what are at times understandable aspirations, manage to assert themselves as absolute and unquestionable, even dictating how children should be raised. It needs to be emphasized that ‘biological sex and the socio-cultural role of sex (gender) can be distinguished but not separated.’”[104] Therefore, all attempts to obscure reference to the ineliminable sexual difference between man and woman are to be rejected: “We cannot separate the masculine and the feminine from God’s work of creation, which is prior to all our decisions and experiences, and where biological elements exist which are impossible to ignore.”[105] Only by acknowledging and accepting this difference in reciprocity can each person fully discover themselves, their dignity, and their identity.
Sex Change
60. The dignity of the body cannot be considered inferior to that of the person as such. The Catechism of the Catholic Church expressly invites us to recognize that “the human body shares in the dignity of ‘the image of God.’”[106] Such a truth deserves to be remembered, especially when it comes to sex change, for humans are inseparably composed of both body and soul. In this, the body serves as the living context in which the interiority of the soul unfolds and manifests itself, as it does also through the network of human relationships. Constituting the person’s being, the soul and the body both participate in the dignity that characterizes every human.[107] Moreover, the body participates in that dignity as it is endowed with personal meanings, particularly in its sexed condition.[108] It is in the body that each person recognizes himself or herself as generated by others, and it is through their bodies that men and women can establish a loving relationship capable of generating other persons. Teaching about the need to respect the natural order of the human person, Pope Francis affirmed that “creation is prior to us and must be received as a gift. At the same time, we are called to protect our humanity, and this means, in the first place, accepting it and respecting it as it was created.”[109] It follows that any sex-change intervention, as a rule, risks threatening the unique dignity the person has received from the moment of conception. This is not to exclude the possibility that a person with genital abnormalities that are already evident at birth or that develop later may choose to receive the assistance of healthcare professionals to resolve these abnormalities. However, in this case, such a medical procedure would not constitute a sex change in the sense intended here.

There is also the following subsection on VAWG:
Violence Against Women
44. Violence against women is a global scandal that is gaining increasing recognition. While the equal dignity of women may be recognized in words, the inequalities between women and men in some countries remain very serious. Even in the most developed and democratic countries, the concrete social reality testifies to the fact that women are often not accorded the same dignity as men. Pope Francis highlighted this when he affirmed that “the organization of societies worldwide is still far from reflecting clearly that women possess the same dignity and identical rights as men. We say one thing with words, but our decisions and reality tell another story. Indeed, ‘doubly poor are those women who endure situations of exclusion, mistreatment, and violence, since they are frequently less able to defend their rights.’”[83]
45. Pope St. John Paul II recognized that “much remains to be done to prevent discrimination against those who have chosen to be wives and mothers. […] [T]here is an urgent need to achieve real equality in every area: equal pay for equal work, protection for working mothers, fairness in career advancements, equality of spouses with regard to family rights and the recognition of everything that is part of the rights and duties of citizens in a democratic State.”[84] Indeed, inequalities in these areas are also various forms of violence. He also recalled that “the time has come to condemn vigorously the types of sexual violence which frequently have women for their object and to pass laws which effectively defend them from such violence. Nor can we fail, in the name of the respect due to the human person, to condemn the widespread hedonistic and commercial culture which encourages the systematic exploitation of sexuality and corrupts even very young girls into letting their bodies be used for profit.”[85] Among the forms of violence carried out on women, how can we not mention coercive abortions, which affect both mother and child, often to satisfy the selfishness of males? And how can we not also mention the practice of polygamy? As the Catechism of the Catholic Church reminds us, polygamy is contrary to the equal dignity of women and men; it is also “contrary to conjugal love which is undivided and exclusive.”[86]
46. In this consideration of violence against women, one cannot condemn enough the phenomenon of femicide. On this front, the entire international community must have a coordinated and concrete commitment, as Pope Francis reiterated, “Our love for Mary must help us to feel appreciation and gratitude for women, for our mothers and grandmothers, who are a bastion in the life in our cities. Almost always in silence, they carry life forward. It is the silence and strength of hope. Thank you for your witness. […] But in thinking of our mothers and grandmothers, I want to invite you to combat a scourge that affects our American continent: the numerous cases where women are killed. And the many situations of violence that are kept quiet behind so many walls. I ask you to fight against this source of suffering by calling for legislation and a culture that repudiates every form of violence.”[87]

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 13:52

Thanks, OP.

I love that 'Genderwoo' is capitalised as a heading.

Leafstamp · 08/04/2024 14:07

Yes, thank you for sharing this OP and for pulling out the relevant parts.
This is good news.

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 14:07

It's really interesting reading arguments from a theological perspective. I'd have imagined a 'gendered soul' would have come close to genderist ones, but that is rebutted here (and I know some MNers have explained why it doesn't work in a theological/Catholic viewpoint before).

SaltPorridge · 08/04/2024 14:08

Will be interesting to see if Catholic schools rewrite their policies and stop promoting gender ideology.

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 14:09

'58. Another prominent aspect of gender theory is that it intends to deny the greatest possible difference that exists between living beings: sexual difference. This foundational difference is not only the greatest imaginable difference but is also the most beautiful and most powerful of them. In the male-female couple, this difference achieves the most marvelous of reciprocities. It thus becomes the source of that miracle that never ceases to surprise us: the arrival of new human beings in the world.'

Nicely expressed. I think one could possibly read/write it in similar terms from a scientific or evolutionary biological viewpoint.

Runor · 08/04/2024 14:10

Interesting! I have a strongly Catholic friend, who has always been very much #bekind. Recently though, she’s started to take a much more GC line, I’d wondered what had changed!

MyWyndolynne · 08/04/2024 14:12

I feel more and more drawn to God and tradition these days.

TheFallenMadonna · 08/04/2024 14:19

Not surprising. Consistent with the church's teaching on abortion, IVF and same sex relationships.

NitroNine · 08/04/2024 14:57

Ähm, to be clear, His Holiness & his clerical chums did not, sadly, use the term Gender-Woo when drafting the document. I’m sure it was just an oversight though…

@SaltPorridge - Catholic Schools teaching GenderWoo should have shifted away from it after 2019’s “Male and Female He Created Them”: Towards a Path of Dialogue on the Question of Gender Theory in Education. Complaints to the relevant [Arch]diocese might accelerate matters, though exactly how best to go about things always varies by country 🤔

@Leafstamp important as I think it is, I’d not expect everyone to wade through the whole lot 😁 the link’s there for anyone/everyone who enjoys a bit of light doctrine; but sharing the bits most key to FWR (Church not suddenly accepting abortions didn’t seem like news; & section on trafficking seemed broadly covered by VAWG 🤷‍♀️) seemed sensible.

@ArabellaScott it’s going to cause merry hell over in the US - potentially to the point of people voting for an independent candidate rather than Catholic Biden. Because we all know Catholics are just puppets of the Antichrist over in Rome. (I really wish there weren’t so many real actual people who believed that 🤦‍♀️).

@Runor the Church has taken a clear line on it for several years - but she may have been going a bit too much on the instruction that you should show compassion to individuals? If she’s big into interdenominational stuff that may have pushed GenderWoo = Christianity Compatible because pretty much everyone else has gone for it with wild enthusiasm.

OP posts:
fromorbit · 08/04/2024 15:22

So when do the TRA demos against Catholic churches start do we think? They have meetings every Sunday and you can't miss their buildings. They are tall and pointy.

As NitroNine has said the general outline of Catholic thought on this has been clear for years. In the UK Catholic bishops have consistently spoken out against Self ID, new gender laws in education etc. Yet weirdly Catholic leaders are not targeted for demos. The media seldom mention it despite there being an estimated 5. 7 million Catholics in the UK and there are a billion worldwide.

What is it about the Pope and bishops which means there is no push back when they say things about gender when every time some women say something milder there are massive ructions and they get mobbed.

I can't work it out. Maybe it is the clothes? If women started wearing pointy hats and odd looking dresses like Catholic priests do, [hats without brims don't want to look like witches] will they be allowed to say things ?

1plus1equalswindow · 08/04/2024 17:10

I'm not religious, or anti-abortion. But this was written beautifully.

Clabony · 08/04/2024 17:50

I think that I might start going back to Church on reading that. We parted company a long time ago.

The writing throughout is so considered and thoughtful. It is indeed beautifully written.

Also It refers to coercive abortion in the section on VAWG. No longer condemnation of women who choose what is best for them in their own situation. I welcome that. A huge step forward.

A child is always a gift and never the basis of a commercial contract. Consequently, I express my hope for an effort by the international community to prohibit this practice universally.”[92] Amen to that.

Leafbuds · 08/04/2024 18:05

Actually I'm not sure that this helps the cause - to me, the other corrolaries of the beliefs they list, including anti-IVF, anti-homosexuality, etc, mean that the belief that sex is immutable might be lumped in with those, and gender critical people will be seen as mainly religious, conservative, right wing, homophobic, pro-life, etc. I don't want to be associated with any of that. I do believe sex is immutable, but because of biology, not because of anything to do with God or dogma or acceptance that male/female couples are special and beautiful.

Clabony · 08/04/2024 18:27

I can't see anywhere within that document which reads anti homosexuality, anti trans, or anti IVF? That is, in part, what is striking about it. In fact I think it's quite respectful of individuals whom the Church previous condemned.

My comment is as someone raised R.C but who hasn't been in touch with the church for decades for exactly those attitudes.

What I'm reading which @NitroNine kindly posted above, is quite a remarkable document for the R.C. faith, particularly given it's previous despicable treatment of women. That's what I find worth remarking upon.

No one is forcing anyone to adopt Catholicism on the thread. But as a document in the R.C Church my comment is that: the way it is written is a huge step forward for women brought up in that religion.

I do believe sex is immutable, but because of biology, not because of anything to do with God or dogma or acceptance that male/female couples are special and beautiful. Absolutely I agree with this. But, respectfully, it's not really written for you is it? It's a religious document.

As I say, I'm just commenting as a very lapsed Catholic, who also believes very much in biology.

Leafbuds · 08/04/2024 18:54

No, I realise it's not written for me, and it's for Catholics, and I agree that it might be an improvement on the way things were previously. But I still worry that it might not be helpful on the whole, because it could make gender critical beliefs seem aligned with religious, conservative views, and therefore too easily dismissed. It might not happen of course, but I'd still be a bit concerned. I've been lumped in with homophobes too often for having gender-critical views, seen as old fashioned, conservative, bigoted etc., and just worry that this could be another reason to dismiss GC views

It reads as homophobic and anti-IVF to me as the same principles that underpin what is being said about why sex can't change or why surrogacy is wrong depend on a belief that couples should be one male and one female, and for reproduction to happen naturally for the dignity of the child. Others may disagree - those were just my thoughts on reading it. I"m glad that Catholics are finding it helpful and beautifully written.

NitroNine · 08/04/2024 19:28

@fromorbit see attached image 😉
Edit: Which I forgot to attach because I spent so long writing 🤦‍♀️ the edit function won’t let you add images, so see next post instead…

@1plus1equalswindow it is very beautifully - & clearly - written: & I think it’s possible to agree with [some of] what’s said while disagreeing vehemently with the Church about other things

@Leafbuds so you have missed that we are all right-wing Christo-Fascist actual literal Nazis being paid by the Sinister Forces of American Megachurches to oppress the poor TW who just wish to pee on our legs & tell us it’s raining? Because the boat for “not being wildly & grossly slandered & libelled” departed so long ago next time we see it will be when some fragments of it are discovered on an archeological dig. Do you like cats? Pope Benedict XVI was so fond of them his official biographer was a cat, Chico. Use cutlery? Oppose people trafficking? Believe the earth is round? Clearly you are Papist then! Or, you know, absolutely nothing of the fecking kind. It’s such an absurd notion, that to agree on some points means one must be in accord on all; & it should be pushed back against whatever the ties someone seeks to falsely bind groups with. It is a peculiar strategy for TRAs to adopt, frankly, given they really cannot afford to play Icky Allegiances/Purity Spirals. When the person[s] they are attacking use the same tactic TRAs inevitably lose so dramatically, painfully & staggering hard that it feels as if it should be filed under “battle of wits: opponent unarmed + no access to weapons”.

@Clabony to be clear, there is a separate section on abortion that I didn’t post as the OP was very long & it didn’t represent a change to established doctrine. The belief life starts at conception doesn’t really leave doctrinal wiggle room. However, in 2015 the Pope gave priests the power to, during the jubilee year of 2016, not only grant absolution to women who’d had abortions [at any time] but lift their excommunication (previously reserved for bishops). John Paul II granted priests the power to grant absolution for abortions in 1983, but needing bishops to lift excommunications meant lots of women left the church. So in some places bishops unofficially gave priests permission to lift excommunications too, but it was a really patchy system. So in November 2016 Pope Francis extended that power indefinitely, in the apostolic letter Misericordia et Miseria. That represents almost unimaginable progress; & for so many women will have helped with resolving how they felt. And clearly it would be better if women didn’t have this extra weight attached to their decision making; but in the circumstances, this much progress (& it really is, even if it doesn’t look like it from outwith the church, enormous progress) is incredible. The spokeswoman for Rachel’s Vineyard understood it as huge progress, certainly:
“We are extremely ecstatic that the Pope is recognizing that the decision women have made has harmed them in so many ways, and they want to be reunited with the Church.
“The Church has had the ability to forgive these women, but many of these women had difficulty forgiving themselves. This outreach by the Pope is saying ‘Don’t isolate yourselves, come back to the church.’”
Would have been nice if she recognised the harm done by the Church with their decisions, but 🙄

OP posts:
Clabony · 08/04/2024 19:31

Those who want to call me right wing/Nazis/yadda yadda for G.C beliefs do that already as far as I've experienced anyway.

I don't think everyone on here is a Catholic. I can't exactly say that I'm a practising one, just my background.🙂

Edited. I see what you are saying now Leafbuds. I've edited the post now as I didn't realise that there was an additional piece on abortion until Nitro posted it. My apologies.

aberamagold · 08/04/2024 19:33

But the birth of a child does require a couple who are one male and one female. That's not homophobic, it is reality.

I am a life long atheist and socialist, and I am very uncomfortable at the use of donor gametes and IVF, (originally supposed to be a medical treatment for infertility), to fulfil 'a right to a child' for homosexual couples and single people, or women who are past their natural reproductive age.

Clabony · 08/04/2024 19:42

@NitroNine Thanks for the update, I was aware of what you write there, but it's good to see it in historical context. 🙂

NitroNine · 08/04/2024 19:43

fromorbit
Obviously it’s that they know about the Holy Venom. And I’m not ruling out there’s a chance they’d melt/burn if they got splashed with Holy Water 😉

It couldn’t possibly be that TRAs are engaging in misogyny & VAWG, of course. Perish the very thought. After all, they keep telling us TWAW who experience misogyny. And they can’t oppress anyone because they are being oppressed by everyone all the time. SOMEONE WAS LAUGHED AT ONLY THE OTHER DAY. (And we all know, as I saw someone on TwiX respond to JKR, that women are scared of being laughed at. Oh no wait. That would be men. Men are scared of being laughed at by women; while women are scared of being killed by men. They can’t help but keep demonstrating TWAM, over & over ad infinitum, with their every word & action.)

(NB above refers to the rabid TRAs of TwiX etc, not all trans people & not even all trans people on TwiX. The group I’m talking about engage in the bullying & harassment of trans people who do not agree with their ideology with [almost] as much fervour as they do women.)

Surrogacy & GenderWoo now officially condemned in Catholic Doctrine
OP posts:
Emotionalsupportviper · 08/04/2024 20:37

Clabony · 08/04/2024 17:50

I think that I might start going back to Church on reading that. We parted company a long time ago.

The writing throughout is so considered and thoughtful. It is indeed beautifully written.

Also It refers to coercive abortion in the section on VAWG. No longer condemnation of women who choose what is best for them in their own situation. I welcome that. A huge step forward.

A child is always a gift and never the basis of a commercial contract. Consequently, I express my hope for an effort by the international community to prohibit this practice universally.”[92] Amen to that.

I'm CofE but am up to my back teeth with the Anglican Church at the moment - as many are.

I may well go over to Rome at this rate.

Edit because I didn't;t like the look of the acronym ATM

AderynBach · 08/04/2024 20:44

Emotionalsupportviper · 08/04/2024 20:37

I'm CofE but am up to my back teeth with the Anglican Church at the moment - as many are.

I may well go over to Rome at this rate.

Edit because I didn't;t like the look of the acronym ATM

Edited

Same. Huge respect for the clarity and depth in Catholic ethical thought. Can't quite get on board with all the dogma...but C of E has really become quite disappointing and just seems to blow with the wind. Not much use when it comes to really pernicious ideologies that are taking root.

Thanks for this @NitroNine .

Universalfamily · 08/04/2024 21:16

As a Catholic none of this surprises me as this is what I have been taught and have heard in the Catholic context for years, it's just any reemphasis.

As for those who are wondering why the Church is not being more directly attacked by the TRAs - it is - from within. The usual suspects have been funding various groups within the Church to try and suggest Catholic teaching lacks kindness and understanding of the Trans issue. The descriptive: "Gender Ideology" was apparently even a Catholic invented phrase from some time ago as Catholic thinkers quickly saw where this was leading (i.e. nowhere good). There are (small but powerful) groups within the Church who are always trying to force the Church down this path with notorious promoters of Trans Ideology such as Fr. James Martin S.J. who is a Jesuit based in NYC. He loves to suggest Catholics are haters for not agreeing with Gender Ideology.

The Church is also going through this process called "Synodality" which has been greeted worldwide with a very lukewarm reception and engagement from average practice Catholics. This is because it's clearly an attempt by a minority of dissenting Catholics in the West, usually from dying national Churches such as in Germany and Holland, who are trying to force changes to Catholic teaching and ethics by trying to frame it as desired by the faithful. We all know it's just an elaborate attempt to runaround 2,000 years of Catholic teaching and implant fashionable TRA arguments. No practicing Catholic I know is buying it. So although the NY Times and other legacy media outlets might get excited about some documents coming out of various vague committes and pronouncements by the likes of Fr. Martin, the majority of Catholics in the parishes are completely ignoring them.

We know it's political and it's been pushed especially since Pope Francis has been in office. I often think because he doesn't speak English (although he speaks a number of other languages) he can be given the wrong impression about the motives of especially so-called progressives within the Church.

His pronouncements have at times been vague and confusing. But every time an official document has come out with his approval on this stuff is has been true to Catholic teaching (to the consternation of the radicals).

This is one of the advantages of being such as ancient Church, we have seen an enormous number of ideas and philosophies come and go. Also, that even when the Church is under direct attack she has always survived. For example, even if the Church is shrinking and has lukewarm leadership in Europe, in Africa and Asia the Church is booming and going strong - and the local churches send us missionaries to revitalize us in the West.

isittheholidaysyet · 08/04/2024 21:44

Thanks for this. I was not aware it was being produced.

As a life-long committed catholic, I did read it and think 'well, yes obvs' because there is nothing new or different here that what I have always learnt and studied in Catholic teaching.

I have followed this board for a good few years but rarely post, as I don't really think that many would feel a person like me fits here.
I find all of your discussions fascinating and I agree with so much of what is said.
However, I do see some very weird understandings of what the Catholic Church believes and teaches, which bear no resemblance to what I have seen heard and lived for my whole 46 years of life.

I agree with Universal family 's post above as well about the promotion of 'gender woo' inside the church and Catholic schools and the synod. My experience is very similar.
(I agree with all her points really)

Clabony · 08/04/2024 21:50

I've engine searched Fr. James Martin as I've been out of the loop so long, I've never heard of him.

From what I can see, Pope Francis himself appointed him to a Vatican Communications post. It looks to me as though the T is being linked in with LGB issues as you say Universalfamily. Which I'm not comfortable with. Fr. Martin is VERY high profile isn't he? Thank you for posting that information.

I feel like I've stepped out of a time capsule, so that's a lot of reading and catching up to do for me.

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