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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Surrogacy & GenderWoo now officially condemned in Catholic Doctrine

70 replies

NitroNine · 08/04/2024 13:23

The long-awaited Dignitas Infinita has finally dropped and, as the title says, it means that doctrinally, Catholicism is now officially anti-surrogacy & anti-GenderWoo. Not a huge surprise as the Church had been firmly leaning that way, but now there is a definitive position.

The relevant parts (should anyone be disinclined to read the entire thing) are:

SURROGACY:
48. The Church also takes a stand against the practice of surrogacy, through which the immensely worthy child becomes a mere object. On this point, Pope Francis’s words have a singular clarity: “The path to peace calls for respect for life, for every human life, starting with the life of the unborn child in the mother’s womb, which cannot be suppressed or turned into an object of trafficking. In this regard, I deem deplorable the practice of so-called surrogate motherhood, which represents a grave violation of the dignity of the woman and the child, based on the exploitation of situations of the mother’s material needs. A child is always a gift and never the basis of a commercial contract. Consequently, I express my hope for an effort by the international community to prohibit this practice universally.”[92]
49. First and foremost, the practice of surrogacy violates the dignity of the child. Indeed, every child possesses an intangible dignity that is clearly expressed—albeit in a unique and differentiated way—at every stage of his or her life: from the moment of conception, at birth, growing up as a boy or girl, and becoming an adult. Because of this unalienable dignity, the child has the right to have a fully human (and not artificially induced) origin and to receive the gift of a life that manifests both the dignity of the giver and that of the receiver. Moreover, acknowledging the dignity of the human person also entails recognizing every dimension of the dignity of the conjugal union and of human procreation. Considering this, the legitimate desire to have a child cannot be transformed into a “right to a child” that fails to respect the dignity of that child as the recipient of the gift of life.[93]
50. Surrogacy also violates the dignity of the woman, whether she is coerced into it or chooses to subject herself to it freely. For, in this practice, the woman is detached from the child growing in her and becomes a mere means subservient to the arbitrary gain or desire of others. This contrasts in every way with the fundamental dignity of every human being and with each person’s right to be recognized always individually and never as an instrument for another.

GENDERWOO
Gender Theory
55. The Church wishes, first of all, “to reaffirm that every person, regardless of sexual orientation, ought to be respected in his or her dignity and treated with consideration, while ‘every sign of unjust discrimination’ is to be carefully avoided, particularly any form of aggression and violence.”[101] For this reason, it should be denounced as contrary to human dignity the fact that, in some places, not a few people are imprisoned, tortured, and even deprived of the good of life solely because of their sexual orientation.
56. At the same time, the Church highlights the definite critical issues present in gender theory. On this point, Pope Francis has reminded us that “the path to peace calls for respect for human rights, in accordance with the simple yet clear formulation contained in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, whose seventy-fifth anniversary we recently celebrated. These principles are self-evident and commonly accepted. Regrettably, in recent decades, attempts have been made to introduce new rights that are neither fully consistent with those originally defined nor always acceptable. They have led to instances of ideological colonization, in which gender theory plays a central role; the latter is extremely dangerous since it cancels differences in its claim to make everyone equal.”[102]
57. Regarding gender theory, whose scientific coherence is the subject of considerable debate among experts, the Church recalls that human life in all its dimensions, both physical and spiritual, is a gift from God. This gift is to be accepted with gratitude and placed at the service of the good. Desiring a personal self-determination, as gender theory prescribes, apart from this fundamental truth that human life is a gift, amounts to a concession to the age-old temptation to make oneself God, entering into competition with the true God of love revealed to us in the Gospel.
58. Another prominent aspect of gender theory is that it intends to deny the greatest possible difference that exists between living beings: sexual difference. This foundational difference is not only the greatest imaginable difference but is also the most beautiful and most powerful of them. In the male-female couple, this difference achieves the most marvelous of reciprocities. It thus becomes the source of that miracle that never ceases to surprise us: the arrival of new human beings in the world.
59. In this sense, respect for both one’s own body and that of others is crucial in light of the proliferation of claims to new rights advanced by gender theory. This ideology “envisages a society without sexual differences, thereby eliminating the anthropological basis of the family.”[103] It thus becomes unacceptable that “some ideologies of this sort, which seek to respond to what are at times understandable aspirations, manage to assert themselves as absolute and unquestionable, even dictating how children should be raised. It needs to be emphasized that ‘biological sex and the socio-cultural role of sex (gender) can be distinguished but not separated.’”[104] Therefore, all attempts to obscure reference to the ineliminable sexual difference between man and woman are to be rejected: “We cannot separate the masculine and the feminine from God’s work of creation, which is prior to all our decisions and experiences, and where biological elements exist which are impossible to ignore.”[105] Only by acknowledging and accepting this difference in reciprocity can each person fully discover themselves, their dignity, and their identity.
Sex Change
60. The dignity of the body cannot be considered inferior to that of the person as such. The Catechism of the Catholic Church expressly invites us to recognize that “the human body shares in the dignity of ‘the image of God.’”[106] Such a truth deserves to be remembered, especially when it comes to sex change, for humans are inseparably composed of both body and soul. In this, the body serves as the living context in which the interiority of the soul unfolds and manifests itself, as it does also through the network of human relationships. Constituting the person’s being, the soul and the body both participate in the dignity that characterizes every human.[107] Moreover, the body participates in that dignity as it is endowed with personal meanings, particularly in its sexed condition.[108] It is in the body that each person recognizes himself or herself as generated by others, and it is through their bodies that men and women can establish a loving relationship capable of generating other persons. Teaching about the need to respect the natural order of the human person, Pope Francis affirmed that “creation is prior to us and must be received as a gift. At the same time, we are called to protect our humanity, and this means, in the first place, accepting it and respecting it as it was created.”[109] It follows that any sex-change intervention, as a rule, risks threatening the unique dignity the person has received from the moment of conception. This is not to exclude the possibility that a person with genital abnormalities that are already evident at birth or that develop later may choose to receive the assistance of healthcare professionals to resolve these abnormalities. However, in this case, such a medical procedure would not constitute a sex change in the sense intended here.

There is also the following subsection on VAWG:
Violence Against Women
44. Violence against women is a global scandal that is gaining increasing recognition. While the equal dignity of women may be recognized in words, the inequalities between women and men in some countries remain very serious. Even in the most developed and democratic countries, the concrete social reality testifies to the fact that women are often not accorded the same dignity as men. Pope Francis highlighted this when he affirmed that “the organization of societies worldwide is still far from reflecting clearly that women possess the same dignity and identical rights as men. We say one thing with words, but our decisions and reality tell another story. Indeed, ‘doubly poor are those women who endure situations of exclusion, mistreatment, and violence, since they are frequently less able to defend their rights.’”[83]
45. Pope St. John Paul II recognized that “much remains to be done to prevent discrimination against those who have chosen to be wives and mothers. […] [T]here is an urgent need to achieve real equality in every area: equal pay for equal work, protection for working mothers, fairness in career advancements, equality of spouses with regard to family rights and the recognition of everything that is part of the rights and duties of citizens in a democratic State.”[84] Indeed, inequalities in these areas are also various forms of violence. He also recalled that “the time has come to condemn vigorously the types of sexual violence which frequently have women for their object and to pass laws which effectively defend them from such violence. Nor can we fail, in the name of the respect due to the human person, to condemn the widespread hedonistic and commercial culture which encourages the systematic exploitation of sexuality and corrupts even very young girls into letting their bodies be used for profit.”[85] Among the forms of violence carried out on women, how can we not mention coercive abortions, which affect both mother and child, often to satisfy the selfishness of males? And how can we not also mention the practice of polygamy? As the Catechism of the Catholic Church reminds us, polygamy is contrary to the equal dignity of women and men; it is also “contrary to conjugal love which is undivided and exclusive.”[86]
46. In this consideration of violence against women, one cannot condemn enough the phenomenon of femicide. On this front, the entire international community must have a coordinated and concrete commitment, as Pope Francis reiterated, “Our love for Mary must help us to feel appreciation and gratitude for women, for our mothers and grandmothers, who are a bastion in the life in our cities. Almost always in silence, they carry life forward. It is the silence and strength of hope. Thank you for your witness. […] But in thinking of our mothers and grandmothers, I want to invite you to combat a scourge that affects our American continent: the numerous cases where women are killed. And the many situations of violence that are kept quiet behind so many walls. I ask you to fight against this source of suffering by calling for legislation and a culture that repudiates every form of violence.”[87]

OP posts:
Universalfamily · 08/04/2024 22:23

Fr. James Martin was on the fringes and controversial for many years. He likes to dance on edge where he can always say he agrees with Church teaching, while constantly undermining it and giving the impression that those that think like him have the heart of Christ, while those that don't are heartless dinosaurs (sound familiar?). He was loved and lauded by media darlings and liberal academics who like to imply the average Catholic in the pew is a misled, mindless reactionary.

He suddenly was brought to the heart of the Church with Francis' Papacy which was all very strange and suss. But they are both Jesuits, so we have to assume the Pope knew what he was doing.

Universalfamily · 08/04/2024 22:34

An example "What can the Church learn from Trans couples?"
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/4AV_jRwaGM0

Note, he calls her a "cisgender woman"

Before you continue to YouTube

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/4AV_jRwaGM0

Clabony · 08/04/2024 22:35

I'm very sure that the Pope knows what he is doing. It's a clever move by the Vatican, despite giving Fr. Martin a bit of a badge to wave around in N.Y.

Friends close and enemies closer comes to mind.

PrinceYakimov · 08/04/2024 22:44

I'm Anglican: the clarity, consistency and compassion of Catholic thought on all these issues is impressive. Most impressive.

AmaryllisChorus · 08/04/2024 22:48

The Catholic Church used to sell babies, and lie to new mothers about stillbirths and cot deaths to facilitate the sales. Glad to see they are finally exploring a bit of morality regarding the mother and child's rights.

Universalfamily · 08/04/2024 22:50

@Clabony you know I think a lot of us think that, Pope Francis seems pretty crafty and that he likes to being controversy to his door and see if there is any truth in it. It also seems like the Pope is willing to string along all these fashionable Western ideologs who get very excited when he brings them to Rome, but then his teaching has been surprisingly solid. I also thinks he takes note of those that aren't serving the poor, but are very focused on fashionable ideas.

Another point is that most of the most progressive/liberal priests and leaders are Boomers and the generations under them are more orthodox. When he became Pope he brought back a group of Priests from the Post-Vatican II period of the 70s & 80s who are all in their 70s and 80s themselves! They don't represent the three generations under them very much these days, but still seem to love to see themselves as rebels. They don't appear to understand that those younger aren't interested in burning to the ground the only traditionally Western Institution still standing after the social revolutions of the 1960s. They don't recognize we are living in the rubble of late Capitalism with civilization itself starting to look shaky.

Universalfamily · 08/04/2024 22:53

@PrinceYakimov none of this teaching is new. Both John Paul II & Benedict XVI spoke out and wrote clearly on these issues but they are/were always ignored by the secular press.

StealthSpinach · 08/04/2024 23:03

Thank you for the thread, OP. I am finding it quite fascinating reading.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 08/04/2024 23:07

I agree with stealth

thank you for the thread OP, as an incredibly lapsed catholic for at least 40 years i agree with other posters that this makes sense within catholic teaching

Universalfamily · 08/04/2024 23:07

Although individual Bishops and Bishop conferences came out against Gender Ideology with documents, they recognized the Vatican needed to release a teaching document for the entire Church. Pope Benedict spoke of this issue
catholicherald.co.uk/pope-benedict-predicted-gender-ideology-would-be-final-rebellion-against-god/

GrumpyPanda · 08/04/2024 23:17

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 14:09

'58. Another prominent aspect of gender theory is that it intends to deny the greatest possible difference that exists between living beings: sexual difference. This foundational difference is not only the greatest imaginable difference but is also the most beautiful and most powerful of them. In the male-female couple, this difference achieves the most marvelous of reciprocities. It thus becomes the source of that miracle that never ceases to surprise us: the arrival of new human beings in the world.'

Nicely expressed. I think one could possibly read/write it in similar terms from a scientific or evolutionary biological viewpoint.

GC Catholic here, and I'm afraid I disagree there is much that is positive about this. It's fucking complementarianism raising its ugly head again - the Catholic variety of separate but equal (as if.) Francis likes to call it "the feminine genius" - bleurgh. Don't be fooled - when the Church talks about "gender ideology", it's not sex change fantasies they aim at as much as those pesky women's libbers and their ideas of gender as oppressive and separate from sex. And THAT is why the Catholic campaign against "gender ideology" started way back in the 90s when nobody paid any attention to trans (and also why I really really think it would be more productive if we called it something else - they talked about it first, they own the trademark.)

Universalfamily · 08/04/2024 23:24

@GrumpyPanda I think this an argument within the Church yes, but there are plenty of Catholics, both men and women that recognize sex differences but aren't rigid about gender roles. It's also NOT Catholic teaching that there are defined gender roles for men and women. We have female Catholic Saints who were military leaders, founders and leaders of communities and medical physicians. As you know Catholic girls schools to this day produce some of the most highly educated thinkers out there. It's because we are taught to think and defend arguments that many Catholics have been able to push back on this ideology so successfully.

Notamum12345577 · 08/04/2024 23:27

NitroNine · 08/04/2024 13:23

The long-awaited Dignitas Infinita has finally dropped and, as the title says, it means that doctrinally, Catholicism is now officially anti-surrogacy & anti-GenderWoo. Not a huge surprise as the Church had been firmly leaning that way, but now there is a definitive position.

The relevant parts (should anyone be disinclined to read the entire thing) are:

SURROGACY:
48. The Church also takes a stand against the practice of surrogacy, through which the immensely worthy child becomes a mere object. On this point, Pope Francis’s words have a singular clarity: “The path to peace calls for respect for life, for every human life, starting with the life of the unborn child in the mother’s womb, which cannot be suppressed or turned into an object of trafficking. In this regard, I deem deplorable the practice of so-called surrogate motherhood, which represents a grave violation of the dignity of the woman and the child, based on the exploitation of situations of the mother’s material needs. A child is always a gift and never the basis of a commercial contract. Consequently, I express my hope for an effort by the international community to prohibit this practice universally.”[92]
49. First and foremost, the practice of surrogacy violates the dignity of the child. Indeed, every child possesses an intangible dignity that is clearly expressed—albeit in a unique and differentiated way—at every stage of his or her life: from the moment of conception, at birth, growing up as a boy or girl, and becoming an adult. Because of this unalienable dignity, the child has the right to have a fully human (and not artificially induced) origin and to receive the gift of a life that manifests both the dignity of the giver and that of the receiver. Moreover, acknowledging the dignity of the human person also entails recognizing every dimension of the dignity of the conjugal union and of human procreation. Considering this, the legitimate desire to have a child cannot be transformed into a “right to a child” that fails to respect the dignity of that child as the recipient of the gift of life.[93]
50. Surrogacy also violates the dignity of the woman, whether she is coerced into it or chooses to subject herself to it freely. For, in this practice, the woman is detached from the child growing in her and becomes a mere means subservient to the arbitrary gain or desire of others. This contrasts in every way with the fundamental dignity of every human being and with each person’s right to be recognized always individually and never as an instrument for another.

GENDERWOO
Gender Theory
55. The Church wishes, first of all, “to reaffirm that every person, regardless of sexual orientation, ought to be respected in his or her dignity and treated with consideration, while ‘every sign of unjust discrimination’ is to be carefully avoided, particularly any form of aggression and violence.”[101] For this reason, it should be denounced as contrary to human dignity the fact that, in some places, not a few people are imprisoned, tortured, and even deprived of the good of life solely because of their sexual orientation.
56. At the same time, the Church highlights the definite critical issues present in gender theory. On this point, Pope Francis has reminded us that “the path to peace calls for respect for human rights, in accordance with the simple yet clear formulation contained in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, whose seventy-fifth anniversary we recently celebrated. These principles are self-evident and commonly accepted. Regrettably, in recent decades, attempts have been made to introduce new rights that are neither fully consistent with those originally defined nor always acceptable. They have led to instances of ideological colonization, in which gender theory plays a central role; the latter is extremely dangerous since it cancels differences in its claim to make everyone equal.”[102]
57. Regarding gender theory, whose scientific coherence is the subject of considerable debate among experts, the Church recalls that human life in all its dimensions, both physical and spiritual, is a gift from God. This gift is to be accepted with gratitude and placed at the service of the good. Desiring a personal self-determination, as gender theory prescribes, apart from this fundamental truth that human life is a gift, amounts to a concession to the age-old temptation to make oneself God, entering into competition with the true God of love revealed to us in the Gospel.
58. Another prominent aspect of gender theory is that it intends to deny the greatest possible difference that exists between living beings: sexual difference. This foundational difference is not only the greatest imaginable difference but is also the most beautiful and most powerful of them. In the male-female couple, this difference achieves the most marvelous of reciprocities. It thus becomes the source of that miracle that never ceases to surprise us: the arrival of new human beings in the world.
59. In this sense, respect for both one’s own body and that of others is crucial in light of the proliferation of claims to new rights advanced by gender theory. This ideology “envisages a society without sexual differences, thereby eliminating the anthropological basis of the family.”[103] It thus becomes unacceptable that “some ideologies of this sort, which seek to respond to what are at times understandable aspirations, manage to assert themselves as absolute and unquestionable, even dictating how children should be raised. It needs to be emphasized that ‘biological sex and the socio-cultural role of sex (gender) can be distinguished but not separated.’”[104] Therefore, all attempts to obscure reference to the ineliminable sexual difference between man and woman are to be rejected: “We cannot separate the masculine and the feminine from God’s work of creation, which is prior to all our decisions and experiences, and where biological elements exist which are impossible to ignore.”[105] Only by acknowledging and accepting this difference in reciprocity can each person fully discover themselves, their dignity, and their identity.
Sex Change
60. The dignity of the body cannot be considered inferior to that of the person as such. The Catechism of the Catholic Church expressly invites us to recognize that “the human body shares in the dignity of ‘the image of God.’”[106] Such a truth deserves to be remembered, especially when it comes to sex change, for humans are inseparably composed of both body and soul. In this, the body serves as the living context in which the interiority of the soul unfolds and manifests itself, as it does also through the network of human relationships. Constituting the person’s being, the soul and the body both participate in the dignity that characterizes every human.[107] Moreover, the body participates in that dignity as it is endowed with personal meanings, particularly in its sexed condition.[108] It is in the body that each person recognizes himself or herself as generated by others, and it is through their bodies that men and women can establish a loving relationship capable of generating other persons. Teaching about the need to respect the natural order of the human person, Pope Francis affirmed that “creation is prior to us and must be received as a gift. At the same time, we are called to protect our humanity, and this means, in the first place, accepting it and respecting it as it was created.”[109] It follows that any sex-change intervention, as a rule, risks threatening the unique dignity the person has received from the moment of conception. This is not to exclude the possibility that a person with genital abnormalities that are already evident at birth or that develop later may choose to receive the assistance of healthcare professionals to resolve these abnormalities. However, in this case, such a medical procedure would not constitute a sex change in the sense intended here.

There is also the following subsection on VAWG:
Violence Against Women
44. Violence against women is a global scandal that is gaining increasing recognition. While the equal dignity of women may be recognized in words, the inequalities between women and men in some countries remain very serious. Even in the most developed and democratic countries, the concrete social reality testifies to the fact that women are often not accorded the same dignity as men. Pope Francis highlighted this when he affirmed that “the organization of societies worldwide is still far from reflecting clearly that women possess the same dignity and identical rights as men. We say one thing with words, but our decisions and reality tell another story. Indeed, ‘doubly poor are those women who endure situations of exclusion, mistreatment, and violence, since they are frequently less able to defend their rights.’”[83]
45. Pope St. John Paul II recognized that “much remains to be done to prevent discrimination against those who have chosen to be wives and mothers. […] [T]here is an urgent need to achieve real equality in every area: equal pay for equal work, protection for working mothers, fairness in career advancements, equality of spouses with regard to family rights and the recognition of everything that is part of the rights and duties of citizens in a democratic State.”[84] Indeed, inequalities in these areas are also various forms of violence. He also recalled that “the time has come to condemn vigorously the types of sexual violence which frequently have women for their object and to pass laws which effectively defend them from such violence. Nor can we fail, in the name of the respect due to the human person, to condemn the widespread hedonistic and commercial culture which encourages the systematic exploitation of sexuality and corrupts even very young girls into letting their bodies be used for profit.”[85] Among the forms of violence carried out on women, how can we not mention coercive abortions, which affect both mother and child, often to satisfy the selfishness of males? And how can we not also mention the practice of polygamy? As the Catechism of the Catholic Church reminds us, polygamy is contrary to the equal dignity of women and men; it is also “contrary to conjugal love which is undivided and exclusive.”[86]
46. In this consideration of violence against women, one cannot condemn enough the phenomenon of femicide. On this front, the entire international community must have a coordinated and concrete commitment, as Pope Francis reiterated, “Our love for Mary must help us to feel appreciation and gratitude for women, for our mothers and grandmothers, who are a bastion in the life in our cities. Almost always in silence, they carry life forward. It is the silence and strength of hope. Thank you for your witness. […] But in thinking of our mothers and grandmothers, I want to invite you to combat a scourge that affects our American continent: the numerous cases where women are killed. And the many situations of violence that are kept quiet behind so many walls. I ask you to fight against this source of suffering by calling for legislation and a culture that repudiates every form of violence.”[87]

You have gone against section 55 by using the phrase ‘gender woo’

Clabony · 08/04/2024 23:27

@AmaryllisChorus People within the Church did that. I'm well aware. I''ve family who were "imprisoned" in the Magdalen laundries. Their suffering. and the children taken from them, were at the hands of other women, I'm saddened to say.

@Universalfamily I think that placing Fr. Martin within the Dicastery for Communications ties him to the official statements from it. It's a clever move. It's been an interesting evening reading these posts and catching up on developments. Thank you all. I've more reading to do!

Notamum12345577 · 08/04/2024 23:28

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 13:52

Thanks, OP.

I love that 'Genderwoo' is capitalised as a heading.

That was the OP, not the official document

GrumpyPanda · 08/04/2024 23:31

Leafbuds · 08/04/2024 18:54

No, I realise it's not written for me, and it's for Catholics, and I agree that it might be an improvement on the way things were previously. But I still worry that it might not be helpful on the whole, because it could make gender critical beliefs seem aligned with religious, conservative views, and therefore too easily dismissed. It might not happen of course, but I'd still be a bit concerned. I've been lumped in with homophobes too often for having gender-critical views, seen as old fashioned, conservative, bigoted etc., and just worry that this could be another reason to dismiss GC views

It reads as homophobic and anti-IVF to me as the same principles that underpin what is being said about why sex can't change or why surrogacy is wrong depend on a belief that couples should be one male and one female, and for reproduction to happen naturally for the dignity of the child. Others may disagree - those were just my thoughts on reading it. I"m glad that Catholics are finding it helpful and beautifully written.

My impression from this thread is that it's mainly non-Catholics finding it helpful and beautifully written. This Catholic thinks it stinks. Just more same-old same old, pregnant and barefoot, "Jesus had a penis" theology.

Clabony · 08/04/2024 23:39

*There is an urgent need to achieve real equality in every area: equal pay for equal work, protection for working mothers, fairness in career advancements, equality of spouses with regard to family rights and the recognition of everything that is part of the rights and duties of citizens in a democratic State.”[84] Indeed, inequalities in these areas are also various forms of violence. He also recalled that “the time has come to condemn vigorously the types of sexual violence which frequently have women for their object and to pass laws which effectively defend them from such violence. Nor can we fail, in the name of the respect due to the human person, to condemn the widespread hedonistic and commercial culture which encourages the systematic exploitation of sexuality and corrupts even very young girls into letting their bodies be used for profit.”
**
Doesn't read to me as pregnant and barefoot .
As for Jesus having a penis, I'm sure he did. He was a man.

KittyEars · 09/04/2024 08:03

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

ArabellaScott · 09/04/2024 08:08

GrumpyPanda · 08/04/2024 23:17

GC Catholic here, and I'm afraid I disagree there is much that is positive about this. It's fucking complementarianism raising its ugly head again - the Catholic variety of separate but equal (as if.) Francis likes to call it "the feminine genius" - bleurgh. Don't be fooled - when the Church talks about "gender ideology", it's not sex change fantasies they aim at as much as those pesky women's libbers and their ideas of gender as oppressive and separate from sex. And THAT is why the Catholic campaign against "gender ideology" started way back in the 90s when nobody paid any attention to trans (and also why I really really think it would be more productive if we called it something else - they talked about it first, they own the trademark.)

Thanks for the context. I don't necessarily agree with the points expressed - I'm agnostic, for a start - but I found them thoughtfully and elegantly written, nonetheless.

Emotionalsupportviper · 09/04/2024 08:33

Universalfamily · 08/04/2024 21:16

As a Catholic none of this surprises me as this is what I have been taught and have heard in the Catholic context for years, it's just any reemphasis.

As for those who are wondering why the Church is not being more directly attacked by the TRAs - it is - from within. The usual suspects have been funding various groups within the Church to try and suggest Catholic teaching lacks kindness and understanding of the Trans issue. The descriptive: "Gender Ideology" was apparently even a Catholic invented phrase from some time ago as Catholic thinkers quickly saw where this was leading (i.e. nowhere good). There are (small but powerful) groups within the Church who are always trying to force the Church down this path with notorious promoters of Trans Ideology such as Fr. James Martin S.J. who is a Jesuit based in NYC. He loves to suggest Catholics are haters for not agreeing with Gender Ideology.

The Church is also going through this process called "Synodality" which has been greeted worldwide with a very lukewarm reception and engagement from average practice Catholics. This is because it's clearly an attempt by a minority of dissenting Catholics in the West, usually from dying national Churches such as in Germany and Holland, who are trying to force changes to Catholic teaching and ethics by trying to frame it as desired by the faithful. We all know it's just an elaborate attempt to runaround 2,000 years of Catholic teaching and implant fashionable TRA arguments. No practicing Catholic I know is buying it. So although the NY Times and other legacy media outlets might get excited about some documents coming out of various vague committes and pronouncements by the likes of Fr. Martin, the majority of Catholics in the parishes are completely ignoring them.

We know it's political and it's been pushed especially since Pope Francis has been in office. I often think because he doesn't speak English (although he speaks a number of other languages) he can be given the wrong impression about the motives of especially so-called progressives within the Church.

His pronouncements have at times been vague and confusing. But every time an official document has come out with his approval on this stuff is has been true to Catholic teaching (to the consternation of the radicals).

This is one of the advantages of being such as ancient Church, we have seen an enormous number of ideas and philosophies come and go. Also, that even when the Church is under direct attack she has always survived. For example, even if the Church is shrinking and has lukewarm leadership in Europe, in Africa and Asia the Church is booming and going strong - and the local churches send us missionaries to revitalize us in the West.

No practicing Catholic I know is buying it. So although the NY Times and other legacy media outlets might get excited about some documents coming out of various vague committes and pronouncements by the likes of Fr. Martin, the majority of Catholics in the parishes are completely ignoring them.

Same in the C of E - there's a "progressive" theme pushed by a few and led by Archbishop "Wokeby" shoving this trans/ inclusivity/ we-white-Christian-people-are-horrible guff out across the Church.

It's destroying the Church of Christ. Christian Churches already welcome people of all races and colours, and gay, straight and (I assume - I don't pry) bisexual. This is inclusivity.

You are right that the Western Church needs t be revitalised. We need to be going back to the basics of Christianity. Love God. Love your neighbour. Don't do anything to others that you wouldn't want done to you. "On this hangs all the Law and the prophets."

domineastronomy · 09/04/2024 08:50

So how will Biden deal with this I wonder?

Clabony · 09/04/2024 09:00

That's an interesting question.

AderynBach · 09/04/2024 09:36

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Great post. And there is something very comforting and strengthening about seeing a clear articulation of the basis of human dignity, and especially women's dignity, from an institution that remains clear on what it stands for - extremely patchy history notwithstanding.

TheFallenMadonna · 09/04/2024 12:17

domineastronomy · 09/04/2024 08:50

So how will Biden deal with this I wonder?

Biden is pro choice. He holds political views contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church. As do many Catholics.

Abhannmor · 09/04/2024 17:16

TheFallenMadonna · 09/04/2024 12:17

Biden is pro choice. He holds political views contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church. As do many Catholics.

True. He also holds views in foreign policy at odds with most Irish people, despite identifying with his Irish ancestry. I doubt he will be swayed by the Pope but by brute facts - such as a tsunami of lawsuits in the good ole USA.

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