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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is this the most 'woke' headline ever? "How climate change is hitting vulnerable Indonesian trans sex workers"

80 replies

RandySavage · 03/04/2024 10:14

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/indonesian-transgender-climate-change-bandung-b2522422.html

I don't think I've seen even Titania McGrath manage to get so much oppression into so few words.
Can anyone do better?

How climate change is hitting vulnerable Indonesian trans sex workers

Nearly 93% of respondents saw decreased income during the rainy season

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/indonesian-transgender-climate-change-bandung-b2522422.html

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9
Ingenieur · 04/04/2024 22:58

Thanks, @PlumDog , that's a great insight into the failings of the article, and a nice insight into Indonesian culture.

It does somewhat put down the lie of trans people being a uniquely-discriminated-against group, especially compared to gay and lesbian people in Indonesia.

PlumDog · 04/04/2024 23:47

Well they are discriminated against, but it's certainly much more acceptable to be in a male-trans relationship than it would be to be in a male-male relationship.

Mrbumpssmile · 05/04/2024 00:21

lechiffre55 · 04/04/2024 17:48

@Mrbumpssmile
When people are havig a debate about something on the internet, "go google it" isn't much use at getting the other person to challenge their internal views on the subject. Especially when it's followed by "well-researched, documented and known". This sounds very similar to a "the matter is settled" type argument, which is no argument at all.
How about providing me with 3 main points on race and access to nature that highlight at least there is a discussion to be had on the subject?
I'll try and contribute by asking some questions.

Is there racial disparity in access to nature?
If yes, is that disparity due to racist or non racist factors? e.g. I would say living in a city where you have to travel a significant distance to get to nature is not a racist factor.
Is there racial disparity in how people are treated when they are accessing nature?
What could be done to improve things?

Can you see how by putting some words down instead of sending you off to google is more engaging?

Edited

I gave you the exact search term, so you could see which articles/topics interest you. I don't have time to do more and it's very late. I believe the questions in your original post are answered in those articles and reports in some detail, as there are various reasons why non-white people access nature less than white people in the UK, including those you mention.

Ingenieur · 05/04/2024 00:35

Mrbumpssmile · 05/04/2024 00:21

I gave you the exact search term, so you could see which articles/topics interest you. I don't have time to do more and it's very late. I believe the questions in your original post are answered in those articles and reports in some detail, as there are various reasons why non-white people access nature less than white people in the UK, including those you mention.

Good chat

Icanttellyouanything · 05/04/2024 00:42

The key message I took from this is that Indonesian men won't go out in the rain for sex but they will for cake.

TempestTost · 05/04/2024 00:44

Betweenthe2 · 04/04/2024 19:04

I would say living in a city where you have to travel a significant distance to get to nature is not a racist factor.

You don't think racism is a factor in why black people are more likely to live in a city?

Are you suggesting that white people who live in cities don't lack access to nature? Or just that it doesn't matter?

The main reasons that in the UK more ethnic minorities live in cities is the same reasons because that pattern follows through in almost all countries. Relative newcomers tend to settle in cities for a few reasons. This has been the case for centuries and typically has to do with trade and how people move. Peasants, the people on the land, are typically not newcomers.

The other, more recent element is that rural areas in developed countries have been losing population to cities for decades.The same forces that keep rural residents moving to cities tend to keep most people from moving to the country - there are few jobs there. Economic activity is mainly found in cities. And it can be hard for incomers in small rural communities socially too.

This is true in places like Asia and Africa too, except it's not the same people who are ethnic minorities. But if you go look at, say, European, or Jewish, or Asian newcomers in west Africa, you tend to find them in towns and cities, rather than rurally.

None of that is about racism, it's about how populations disperse.

Betweenthe2 · 05/04/2024 00:51

Are you suggesting that white people who live in cities don't lack access to nature? Or just that it doesn't matter?

No not at all. I was pointing out that racism could be a factor. Most Black people are not "newcomers" to the UK. The Windrush was about 80 years ago...

The black people being born in the UK are great grandchildren of immigrants. I'm not sure why you would see them as "newcomers".

lechiffre55 · 05/04/2024 08:51

Ingenieur · 05/04/2024 00:35

Good chat

Were you surprised by that answer? I wasn't.
Its always the bloody same. Google it, I don't have the time.
NEVER able to just put out a few key points. It's almost like they don't have a clue what they are talking about.
That's the problem with no debate, it leaves its proponents unable to rationally discuss anything.
Utter joke.

Ingenieur · 05/04/2024 09:01

@lechiffre55

Yeah, I suppose it's no surprise.

I feel like even if they did post a link to some actual "research" is would be the usual warmed-over guff anyway. Then we'd just have to waste time picking it apart!

I'd sooner not make access to the countryside a culture war issue like these others are attempting, it's the height of cringe.

valensiwalensi · 05/04/2024 09:39

lechiffre55 · 05/04/2024 08:51

Were you surprised by that answer? I wasn't.
Its always the bloody same. Google it, I don't have the time.
NEVER able to just put out a few key points. It's almost like they don't have a clue what they are talking about.
That's the problem with no debate, it leaves its proponents unable to rationally discuss anything.
Utter joke.

They did answer though?

lechiffre55 · 05/04/2024 09:41

valensiwalensi · 05/04/2024 09:39

They did answer though?

Did they? Could you remind me what the answer was please?

Mrbumpssmile · 05/04/2024 21:40

I thought I was being more helpful by trying out search terms then giving you the exact search that brought up a range of detailed research articles and policy documents rather than just random stuff.

I am supposed to remember the details for my work (in environment/nature), but brain fog, Easter holidays and exhaustion means I don't. Sorry.

Mrbumpssmile · 05/04/2024 21:47

lechiffre55 · 05/04/2024 09:41

Did they? Could you remind me what the answer was please?

The Black Environmental Network will probably have links to research that might answer some of your questions:

https://ben-network.org.uk/

(There's also a Women's Environmental Network if you're interested.)

Mrbumpssmile · 05/04/2024 22:04

Ingenieur · 05/04/2024 09:01

@lechiffre55

Yeah, I suppose it's no surprise.

I feel like even if they did post a link to some actual "research" is would be the usual warmed-over guff anyway. Then we'd just have to waste time picking it apart!

I'd sooner not make access to the countryside a culture war issue like these others are attempting, it's the height of cringe.

It's not a "culture war" but something that people have been aware of and fighting since John Clare's despair at the enclosure acts.

CHEESEY13 · 05/04/2024 22:06

Wow! That headline ticks every WokeBox I can think of.

Ofcourseshecan · 05/04/2024 22:15

Decades ago someone wrote the headline ’Sex-change surgeon in mercy dash to palace corgis’ as having something for every kind of reader. I’m pretty sure it was a spoof though.

Ingenieur · 05/04/2024 22:53

Having skimmed through the web pages you link to, there is plenty of superficial fluff. The key takeaways are that there are too many white people in the countryside and not enough people that look like the subjects (with the unspoken assumption here that the subject would prefer that there were more people like her there), that people should smile more, that urban parks have a reputation for being dominated by white people, and that non-Western dress isn't suitable for a walk on the Dales.

Perhaps you can explain where racism has led to these outcomes (other than the racism expressed by the subjects themselves) as @lechiffre55 has asked.

TooBigForMyBoots · 05/04/2024 23:07

It is the most weirdly specific headline in a UK newspaper ever.

I don't think it's "woke".

Mrbumpssmile · 06/04/2024 00:32

Ingenieur · 05/04/2024 22:53

Having skimmed through the web pages you link to, there is plenty of superficial fluff. The key takeaways are that there are too many white people in the countryside and not enough people that look like the subjects (with the unspoken assumption here that the subject would prefer that there were more people like her there), that people should smile more, that urban parks have a reputation for being dominated by white people, and that non-Western dress isn't suitable for a walk on the Dales.

Perhaps you can explain where racism has led to these outcomes (other than the racism expressed by the subjects themselves) as @lechiffre55 has asked.

I don't get why you think I'm an expert! How about actually reading the research articles and reports in the pdfs? As I said, I can't link to them.