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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman's hour 2nd April 2024 JKR's 'hate' thread

556 replies

WarriorN · 02/04/2024 10:08

First item is the Hate bill and JK's tweets - they did invite her on but haven't heard back yet

For women Scotland will be on too.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
StephanieSuperpowers · 02/04/2024 17:02

Ultimately, Old Joker is just here to get some attention from women. Thankfully he also gives an opportunity to reach some curious people who are just reading along by asking the same basic question repeatedly and ignoring the answer.

And in the case of not wanting men who reckon they'd like to be women into women's safe spaces is like racism argument, they have it the wrong way around. The men are really analogous to the white people - the ones doing the oppression and trying to prevent the oppressed people (women) from having any space away from them.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/04/2024 17:03

DadJoke · 02/04/2024 16:39

Do you think we should ban all gay men from being scout leaders because of bad actors? You don't look at the protected characteristic, you look at the individual.

This is a poor analogy.

To be a Scout leader you need a DBS check. Gay men aren't allowed to just become Scout leaders without undergoing any vetting, and neither is anyone else.

But you don't need to undergo any vetting to use women's toilets, you just need to be a woman.

If you define a woman as a female person, you know who is allowed in women's toilets and who shouldn't be there because we can see with our own eyes what sex people are.

If you define a woman as anyone who says they are one, how do you keep "bad actors" out of women's spaces, whilst letting nice trans women into them?

Lion400 · 02/04/2024 17:05

User1979289 · 02/04/2024 16:51

I like it when @DadJoke comments because it is hard at times to imagine what on earth the TRAs and bearded bros who are so keen for women to give up their rights for are thinking. It's clear there is very low social and emotional intelligence to the arguments: which shows why these views are so much more likely to be held by privileged men who never feel the fear and vulnerability women and girls do.
Reading the PPs clear rational countering really helps me form concise and practised points to use to when discussing these matters with teenagers and young people.
So thanks all

😂 True

DadJoke · 02/04/2024 17:07

Waitwhat23 · 02/04/2024 16:43

Anybody telling you that hate crimes against transgender people are increasing in Scotland is talking pure pish -

'The hate crime statistics show that the number of charges with a transgender aggravation in Scotland fell to 55 in 2022-23 from 86 in the previous year. This is against a background of 3145 crimes with race as aggravation, 723 disability and 1884 sexual identity.'

www.copfs.gov.uk/publications/hate-crime-in-scotland-2022-23/html/

I've literally posted evidence that it has, over many years. It fell last year, but that's still the second highest on record.

Woman's hour 2nd April 2024 JKR's 'hate' thread
StephanieSuperpowers · 02/04/2024 17:07

If you define a woman as anyone who says they are one, how do you keep "bad actors" out of women's spaces, whilst letting nice trans women into them?

Maybe you don't want to though? You're sort of assuming that the beardy bros care about women at all. As the marvellous Glosswitch kind of said, you know that they know that transwomen are men - otherwise they wouldn't care about them at all.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/04/2024 17:07

@MissScarletInTheBallroom

Why did the Scottish parliament not simply make this new law apply to all the protected characteristics under the Equality Act, rather than coming up with a new, reduced list?

They were advised against including "sex" by the Independent Review, which stated that it would add complexity to the point it would likely make crimes with other aggravating factors impossible to prosecute successfully, and that it required specific legislation of it's own. Presumably this is what compelled the Misogyny Law Consultation.

https://www.gov.scot/news/misogyny-law-consultation/

Misogyny law consultation

Proposals to criminalise abusive and humiliating behaviour routinely directed at women and girls.

https://www.gov.scot/news/misogyny-law-consultation

Brefugee · 02/04/2024 17:07

(d)a person who cross-dresses,

but what is that? how many women wear men's sweatshirts (nice and baggy) men's jeans (massive pockets), men's coats (inner pockets, who knew?) and so on. I wear Docs 1460s, and Levi 501s topped by (today) a band-shirt (unisex - so men's cut) and when i popped out earlier in the rain i wor a Jack Wolfskin man's jacket (zipper pull on wrong side and an inside pocket. Also big deep pockets. I have a Jack Wolfskin in the women's version to fit me. Shallow pockets, no inside pocket and the zipper pull on the right side (grateful for small mercies)

to be fair, I'm also wearing ladies' undies (a rather nice matching bra and knicker set from Rigby & Peller).

That makes me a cross dresser so all you meanies can't say the hurty words or I'll complain.

Lion400 · 02/04/2024 17:10

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/04/2024 17:07

@MissScarletInTheBallroom

Why did the Scottish parliament not simply make this new law apply to all the protected characteristics under the Equality Act, rather than coming up with a new, reduced list?

They were advised against including "sex" by the Independent Review, which stated that it would add complexity to the point it would likely make crimes with other aggravating factors impossible to prosecute successfully, and that it required specific legislation of it's own. Presumably this is what compelled the Misogyny Law Consultation.

https://www.gov.scot/news/misogyny-law-consultation/

And as we all know a Misogyny Law is utterly pointless if men can call themselves women, without question. If men can be called women in courts of law, in police stations. In sports competitions. A ‘misogyny law’ means fck all unless biological sex is a protected characteristic. Which, I expect they understand.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/04/2024 17:10

StephanieSuperpowers · 02/04/2024 17:07

If you define a woman as anyone who says they are one, how do you keep "bad actors" out of women's spaces, whilst letting nice trans women into them?

Maybe you don't want to though? You're sort of assuming that the beardy bros care about women at all. As the marvellous Glosswitch kind of said, you know that they know that transwomen are men - otherwise they wouldn't care about them at all.

I'm not assuming anything of the kind, I'm hoping @DadJoke will answer for himself though.

duc748 · 02/04/2024 17:12

RebelliousCow · 02/04/2024 16:59

The issue is that TW are men and thus share in the propensity for male patterns of behaviour. We have single sex spaces in order to protect women and girls from some well established sex based differences; those which tend to pose an unacceptable compromise or threat, or certainly a level of discomfort to women and girls in female only spaces.

The public needs to be aware that males ( even those that identify as women) retain male pattern behaviour; including offending and sexualised behaviour - and that just because someone' identifies as a woman' it does not mean they cease to be male. Even if someone has a GRC or has had full surgical removal of the male sex organs this is still the case.

Exactly. And really, why should transwomen gain rights that other men don't have, just by virtues of saying the magic words? If you're going to allow transwomen into women's spaces, why not all men?

DadJoke · 02/04/2024 17:12

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/04/2024 17:03

This is a poor analogy.

To be a Scout leader you need a DBS check. Gay men aren't allowed to just become Scout leaders without undergoing any vetting, and neither is anyone else.

But you don't need to undergo any vetting to use women's toilets, you just need to be a woman.

If you define a woman as a female person, you know who is allowed in women's toilets and who shouldn't be there because we can see with our own eyes what sex people are.

If you define a woman as anyone who says they are one, how do you keep "bad actors" out of women's spaces, whilst letting nice trans women into them?

How do you make sure that no women bad actors use the women's toilets?

There is no evidence (and I mean evidence, not anectdotes) of trans women being any danger statistically to non-trans women. It's a problem invented by transphobes to take rights away from transgender people.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

Gender Identity Nondiscrimination Laws in Public Accommodations: a Review of Evidence Regarding Safety and Privacy in Public Restrooms, Locker Rooms, and Changing Rooms - Sexuality Research and Social Policy

Legislation, regulations, litigation, and ballot propositions affecting public restroom access for transgender people increased drastically in the last three years. Opponents of gender identity inclusive public accommodations nondiscrimination laws oft...

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

Waitwhat23 · 02/04/2024 17:17

DadJoke · 02/04/2024 17:07

I've literally posted evidence that it has, over many years. It fell last year, but that's still the second highest on record.

And I literally posted (more recent) evidence that it dropped last year. By a proportionately large percentage too.

So it decreased rather than increased.

A good thing surely? Something to be celebrated?

domineastronomy · 02/04/2024 17:17

Thank you JKR for exposing this nonsense, ensuring that women can continue to speak the truth.

Waitwhat23 · 02/04/2024 17:18

DadJoke · 02/04/2024 17:12

How do you make sure that no women bad actors use the women's toilets?

There is no evidence (and I mean evidence, not anectdotes) of trans women being any danger statistically to non-trans women. It's a problem invented by transphobes to take rights away from transgender people.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

Got a link to something more than an abstract?

Lovelyview · 02/04/2024 17:21

DadJoke · 02/04/2024 17:12

How do you make sure that no women bad actors use the women's toilets?

There is no evidence (and I mean evidence, not anectdotes) of trans women being any danger statistically to non-trans women. It's a problem invented by transphobes to take rights away from transgender people.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

'He then said he was there as he identified as female.'

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/paedophile-secretly-filmed-women-public-28737673.amp

Oops, sorry that's not evidence it's an 'anecdote' so obviously all our concerns are completely without merit.

Paedophile secretly filmed women in toilet and sexually assaulted tourist

Kurtis Mawson, 22, has now been put behind bars for 25 months

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/paedophile-secretly-filmed-women-public-28737673.amp

AlecTrevelyan006 · 02/04/2024 17:22

DadJoke · 02/04/2024 17:12

How do you make sure that no women bad actors use the women's toilets?

There is no evidence (and I mean evidence, not anectdotes) of trans women being any danger statistically to non-trans women. It's a problem invented by transphobes to take rights away from transgender people.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

FFS! It’s men that are a danger to women. And guess what? All trans women are men.

Brefugee · 02/04/2024 17:22

There is no evidence (and I mean evidence, not anectdotes) of trans women being any danger statistically to non-trans women. It's a problem invented by transphobes to take rights away from transgender people.

FFS mate you read JKRs thread. one of those was a trans man in a women's toilet. Just pack it in. You're not big and you're certainly not (as) clever (as you think you are) with all the sniping and soundbites.

But once more, for anyone reading along who may have questions: transgender women are men. You are required to be a man before you can be a transgender woman. And men are not allowed in women's toilets. So by not allowing trans women (who are men, remember) into women's toilets they are not having any rights taken away.

Another thought. Non binary is another protected characteristic in this? If GC women say they don't have a gender identity, only a sex, then they are gender non-binary. And also covered? (a bit of a stretch, no?)

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/04/2024 17:23

DadJoke · 02/04/2024 17:12

How do you make sure that no women bad actors use the women's toilets?

There is no evidence (and I mean evidence, not anectdotes) of trans women being any danger statistically to non-trans women. It's a problem invented by transphobes to take rights away from transgender people.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

You don't make sure that no "women bad actors" use the women's toilets, because women are women. They are not asking to be treated as the exception to the rule by using the women's toilets; they are the rule. Trans women are asking to be treated as the exception to the rule that male people are not allowed in women's toilets.

So how do you keep the "bad actors", the ones who are just saying, "I identify as a woman" to access women's spaces, or who actually believe they are identifying as a woman whilst using their penis to rape one, out of women's spaces, and at the same time allow the harmless trans women who genuinely believe they identify as women into those spaces?

What are the criteria for access and how do you propose to enforce them?

Because right now your position appears to be that all men, including rapists and murderers, should be allowed to access women's spaces, because nice trans women will be upset if they aren't allowed into these spaces.

As for "no evidence" that trans women cause any harm to women, are you suggesting that the individuals JK Rowling named and shamed in her Twitter thread are not trans women?

Justnot · 02/04/2024 17:24

2018 US article - ok!

stop conflating stuff, being protected from job discrimination due to gender reassignment doesn’t give TW the right to use our toilets

its all been done by sleight of hand to the point that until recently lots of people believed this bollox but the bubble has burst

I am now singing cry me a river in my head……..

Snowypeaks · 02/04/2024 17:24

Doesn't matter if all men who claim to be women are sweethearts who wouldn't hurt a fly (spoiler: they're not). They're men. They can use men's facilities and spaces or campaign for separate provision. We do not have to justify the exclusion of men from women-only spaces. The clue is in the name. Women.

lechiffre55 · 02/04/2024 17:30

ResisterRex · 02/04/2024 16:36

The cops aren't going after her anyway. Just been confirmed that calling the people listed, men, isn't a criminal offence:

JK Rowling hate crime tweets not criminal - police
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68712471

"The Harry Potter author, who lives in Edinburgh, described several transgender women as men, including convicted prisoners, trans activists and other public figures."

(Not sure the Beeb intended this to read like convicted prisoners are "public figures" - or to imply there are non-convicted prisoners? - but there you go)

I would imagine if they were allowed Police Scotland would have tagged on a "please stop reporting" to the end of their statement "please please stop"

Tinysoxxx · 02/04/2024 17:35
  • Males who identify as trans are five times more likely than other males to be imprisoned for sexual offences.
  • Those declaring a transgender identity are less likely than the general population to be victims of murder.

Taken from U.K. census data and data from government on prisons.

DrBlackbird · 02/04/2024 17:36

Waitwhat23 · 02/04/2024 17:18

Got a link to something more than an abstract?

Apart from how others point out this is a study on toilets, not rape relief centres, or sports, or prisons, or single sex wards in hospitals, nor short lists or awards etc etc etc, their own list of limitations (my italics) include;

Limitations of this study include issues inherent with the data source. For example, the data used to represent safety and privacy violations in public restrooms were police records of criminal incidents. While these records should have a relatively high level of reliability in their objective accuracy in recording the existence of such incidents, they fail to include any incidents that were not reported to local law enforcement. For example, it is estimated that only 30 to 35% of rapes and sexual assaults are reported to the police (Truman & Langton, 2014). Nevertheless, by assessing trends over time and using a matched pairs analysis, the authors sought to control for any issues related to unreported incidents. There is no reason to assume that incidents are more or less likely to be reported in a locality with a GIPANDO than in a matched locality.

The crime reports also were not recorded in a way that allows a reviewer to distinguish between incidents involving cisgender people and transgender people. Police departments generally do not distinguish between sex assigned at birth and gender identity. Therefore, there is no way to identify if there were any incidents that involved transgender people being attacked in public restrooms because of their externally perceived gender. A 2008 survey of 93 transgender people in the Washington, DC metropolitan area found that 9% reported experiencing physical assault in a public restroom (Herman, 2013). There was also no way to identify if there were incidents of transgender people or people pretending to be transgender accessing restrooms with intent to harm others. Among the incidents that had notes attached providing more detail, there was no evidence of transgender people being either victims or perpetrators of crimes or of people pretending to be transgender in order to harm others in public restrooms.

It is also important to note that violent and other privacy-related crimes in public restrooms, locker rooms, and changing rooms are exceedingly rare. As a point of comparison, our findings indicated that reports of privacy or safety violations in these public spaces occurred annually at most at a rate of 4.5 per 100,000 population in the jurisdictions we studied; in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in 2015, violent crimes were reported at a rate of 390.1 per 100,000 population, and rapes were reported at a rate of 32.6 per 100,000 (Federal Bureau of Investigation, 2016). While this may be comforting to those who have safety and privacy related concerns about those spaces, the rarity of such incidents may act as a limitation to this analysis. Nevertheless, the matched pairs design was used intentionally to compensate for limited data.
The data were requested from 15 different police departments of different sizes and geographies. Each had its own individual record keeping system, policy for responding to public records requests, and records clerks. Some departments responded by sending extra data and allowing the researchers to search through to find the relevant incidents, while others sent tables with dates and criminal codes. Some appeared to have the ability to search electronically while others had to search manually. Therefore, we are unable to determine whether every single search was equally thorough and turned up every single incident that matched the researchers’ search criteria. For example, the locality that showed the highest number of restroom incidents was the locality in which the police department sent their full criminal logs to the researchers and allowed the researchers to review the records to find incidents that met their search criteria. The higher number of incidents might be more likely to indicate that the researchers performed a more detailed and exhaustive search than the other searches performed within police departments, rather than that there were actually more incidents in that locality. That locality was a matched pair locality, so this may have contributed to the greater number of incidents reported in matched pair localities, as compared to GIPANDO localities. However, the difference-in-difference approach would account for any such bias because we do not rely on the numbers of individual incidents reported for the analyses, but instead rely on the differences within jurisdictions before and after passage of GIPANDOs. We can assume that data collection efforts were consistent within each jurisdiction, and therefore, our calculations produce differences that are comparable across jurisdictions.

Finally, though all of the requests were worded and followed up upon in the same manner, the depth of the results may have varied. Three localities were unable to provide complete incident data, which may decrease the internal validity of the current study. Cases where there was missing data from a matched locality led to the exclusion of the locality with a GIPANDO from the analysis because of the lack of comparable data, which may impact the external validity of the current study.

Gender Identity Nondiscrimination Laws in Public Accommodations: a Review of Evidence Regarding Safety and Privacy in Public Restrooms, Locker Rooms, and Changing Rooms - Sexuality Research and Social Policy

Legislation, regulations, litigation, and ballot propositions affecting public restroom access for transgender people increased drastically in the last three years. Opponents of gender identity inclusive public accommodations nondiscrimination laws oft...

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z#ref-CR20

Boombatty · 02/04/2024 17:37

Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent
official count of transgender prisoners):
76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%

125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%

13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

Boiledbeetle · 02/04/2024 17:37

DadJoke · 02/04/2024 16:39

Do you think we should ban all gay men from being scout leaders because of bad actors? You don't look at the protected characteristic, you look at the individual.

What have gay men and Scout leaders got to do with the price of fish?

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