Disciplinary action for ONS female employees if they object to trans colleagues using their lavatories

[ChristinaXYZ]

This -

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/30/ons-female-employees-disciplinary-object-trans-toilets/

"Women working for the Office for National Statistics face disciplinary action if they object to male-born colleagues using single-sex lavatories and changing rooms, documents leaked to The Sunday Telegraph reveal.

A cache of HR policies, internal communications and posts from the ONS intranet show that the statistics body has been subject to “institutional capture” by trans activists, gender critical campaigners have alleged...

A set of ONS resources on “Gender Identity and Transitioning at Work” includes a manager’s checklist for supporting a transitioning employee with a section headed “use of single-sex facilities”.

It says: “Have you agreed when the employee will start to use single-sex facilities, such as toilets and changing rooms, appropriate to their acquired gender? This will usually be on the first day of transition.”

The document says that “if colleagues object to sharing facilities with employees going through transition, the situation should be dealt with through communication, discussion and education”.

“If colleagues persist with unreasonable objections you may need to manage the situation via grievance or disciplinary procedures.”"

Much more detail including a response from Sex Matters in the article linked above.

But if ONS state that transwomen are women doesn't that mean that a large part of the British statistics are skewed?
For instance: Is this why the average expected life range of women has fallen? I mean is it because of COVID or is it because biological males have been included?
How are we supposed to do science on such a skewed basis? How are the politicians supposed to know which areas of society needs intervention if the statistics are no longer trustworthy?

fimofriend, some links which may be of interest.

Office of Statistics Regulation review of ONS approach to the census.

https://osr.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/publication/review-of-statistics-on-gender-identity-based-on-data-collected-as-part-of-the-2021-england-and-wales-census-interim-report/

“As this interim report makes clear, there was always good reason to expect a significant degree of uncertainty around estimates of the transgender population derived from the gender identity question in the 2021 Census. A willingness on the part of ONS to provide further context and clarity on the initial estimates would be evidence of the strength of the Census process and not a weakness. ONS providing updates to the interpretation of these estimates should be regarded as a normal part of ongoing statistical production for a new area of data collection. The same would be true of any changes to the initial estimates, as long as they are fully and transparently explained. Such updates should not undermine user confidence in the robustness of the Census results as a whole, in which most questions have been asked many times before.”

Latest Statistics Regulation guidance:

https://osr.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/publication/collecting-and-reporting-data-about-sex-and-gender-identity-in-official-statistics-a-guide-for-official-statistics-producers/

“Data about sex and gender identity should be explained and defined for the purpose of a particular set of statistics, and terms, including gender, should not be used interchangeably or as a substitute for each other.”

Dept for Science, Innovation and Technology has commissioned an independent review of the public sector approach to data and research on sex and gender.

https://uksa.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/news/review-of-data-statistics-and-research-on-sex-and-gender/

The review will cover all public bodies.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-data-statistics-and-research-on-sex-and-gender/review-of-data-statistics-and-research-on-sex-and-gender-terms-of-reference

My employer has single-sex toilets and gender neutral toilets, and yes, everyone is expected to stay out of the opposite sex facilities. I’m not going to name them as the atmosphere is lovely and I wouldn’t want anyone to try to change that.

Edited to add that the same is true (thank goodness) at my children’s school - it’s one of the reasons we chose it

@Crankywiddershins I have not said anywhere that employers are legally obliged to discipline employees who “unreasonably” disagree with statutory employment policies even after communication and the grievance process. But what else do you expect them to do?

But if ONS state that transwomen are women doesn't that mean that a large part of the British statistics are skewed?
For instance: Is this why the average expected life range of women has fallen? I mean is it because of COVID or is it because biological males have been included?
How are we supposed to do science on such a skewed basis? How are the politicians supposed to know which areas of society needs intervention if the statistics are no longer trustworthy?

I agree, Professor Alice Sullivan is carrying out a review of this.

The Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (DSIT) has announced today, in partnership with the Cabinet Office, that they are launching a review of ‘Data, Statistics and Research on Sex and Gender’. The UK Statistics Authority warmly welcomes the review, which will be led by Professor Alice Sullivan of University College London and is expected to report by 31 August 2024.

The review’s Terms of Referencece_ set out that the aims of the review are to i) identify obstacles to accurate data collection and research on sex and on gender identity in public bodies and in the research system and ii) set out good practice guidance for how to collect data on sex and gender identity. ^

The Review will have UK-wide focus and will be looking at all public bodies (as defined by the Cabinet Office). The Terms of Reference also note that the review will have regard to the ongoing work by the Office for Statistics Regulation on sex and gender, and the statutory independence of the UK Statistics Authority.

uksa.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/news/review-of-data-statistics-and-research-on-sex-and-gender/

Sorry meant to quote you @Fimofriend

Some employers and service providers provide trans-inclusive facilities but also offer to find solutions for women who say they need sex-segregated provision. It's a bit of a leap beyond that to say that anyone who makes that request will instead be disciplined.

It’s a leap that an MRA would delight in disingenuously making though.

I've started "grey-rocking" him - but sometimes it is difficult. He sits there* poking everyone with a stick, until someone snaps back at him.

If it is the Australian case you are misquoting -

An intact male, who identified as a TW (had been “living as a woman”, commenced hormones, not had surgery) was jailed for 4 years for stealing a car (plus additional charges).

The TW reported to have been raped 2000 times over 4 years - which would horrifically have been multiple assaults every single day of the sentence.

That TW spoke of wanting to be in a female prison - but acknowledged that a separate wing would be appropriate.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/transgender-woman-raped-2-000-times-male-prison-a6989366.html

Raped and beaten - so multiple assaults or rapes but not more than 2000 rapes. This happened in the 1990s. Awful obviously, but no justification to put males in female prisons.

Absolutely not!

But definitely a reason for ensuring TW/TM are safe in a contained wing within a prison housing their biological sex.

RE: James Barry .
After reading the Wikipedia article in the German Wiki, I de-transitioned Barry (I re-formulated the sentence stating that "it is assumed that Barry was trans", so that it now states that this is an assumption held in queerpolitical circles. The whole article still uses "he" as Barrys pronoun, but I might go back to that later.
Grrr. One woman goes against the sexist rules of her time ( with the help of her mother and other wellconnected family members!), and of course she can't have been a woman, she must have been a man.

Absolutely. I'm sure we all agree on that, they should be protected along with all vulnerable prisoners of the same sex. Now the rules have changed in England very few males here are eligible to go to a female prison so I would hope that they are treated like other vulnerable males in the male estate.

Yep as you see from that it shows the solution (sticking plaster solution) to men in the womens is to make them all enclosed and think it’s a good idea.

Except for anyone having a medical emergency, women and children who are more at risk of being assaulted in an unseen place, during building evacuations, hygiene (airflow and floor cleaning).

I bet you it’s all able bodied men designing these. When I asked the manufacturer of the toilets how to get into one of their fully enclosed theatre toilets, they admitted it would take upto 20 minutes with the right tools. Thats not great if the buildings on fire or the lock breaks or someone has had a stroke.

@Ereshkigalangcleg - I’m still holding out hope that Australia will see the devastation caused by their policies, but it seems more and more to be a lost cause.

Something, something, it's inadvisable to let the actions of someone who doesn't have your best interests at heart govern your emotions or responses. Something, something, possibly about transactional analysis and drama triangles.

Ethan Mollick thread with citations: As Twitter is getting new leaders, reminder that moderation is vital:
1) A few trolls ruin everything: Just 0.1% of all Reddits make 38% of attacks on others
2) Short well-explained bans for 1st offenses, followed by perma-bans, work well
3) Toxic communities turn new users toxic

The business case, from League of Legends:
Trolling can be stopped: banning abusive players while giving fast feedback results in 92% of toxic players improving
Trolls cost: if your 1st game has a toxic player, you are 320% more likely to quit forever

https://twitter.com/emollick/status/1585423304055193602

Trolls may not always overlap with the understanding of community disruptors.

Quick, Community-Specific Learning: How Distinctive Toxicity Norms Are Maintained in Political Subreddits Ashwin Rajadesingan, Paul Resnick, Ceren Budak

https://cdn.aaai.org/ojs/7323/7323-28-10553-1-10-20200601.pdf

Interesting item about incivility and if enforcing civility stifles debates. However, I feel there's a distinction between debates that exchange ideas and where parties are open to persuasion as evidence changes, and the sort of exchanges where it's difficult to discern genuine intent to test ideas because ideology dominates all. (And we're back to Lifton, Havel, Solzhenitsyn, Cialdini et al.) ETA: and yes, as with reddit, there will be some posters for whom the goals are secondary gain via even negative engagement, reinforced by the exertion of control over other posters (governing emotions and somehow compelling responses beyond Fermat's manoeuvre), and creating plausibly as equal a likelihood of deterring lurkers as encouraging them.

https://undark.org/2022/08/15/researchers-ask-does-enforcing-civility-stifle-online-debate/

Absolutely - although all prisoners should be safe, not just trans prisoners. Unfortunately sexual assault and rape is not uncommon in prisons.

Interestingly there are lots of new names I haven’t seen before thanking me for my posts 😊😁on this thread. Thank you to you all - it means a lot x

I just hope someone has seen them that has the ear of someone who can influence this madness over reducing public toilet safety for everyone .

my post calling someone a fucking dickhead has now been deleted - but it was worth it for all the thanks :)

Your post was well justified - that’s exactly what the comedian is 😊

This. And, no: No special pandering to one group more than another.... It costs money which is needed for worthwhile purposes. A hulking strongman is not "at risk" in male prisons, regardless of if he likes to rape males or females or both. Other prisoners may be at risk from him. Photos of the male winners of 'women's sports' events will demonstrate there is NO correlation between being physically weak and exploiting the opportunities created by The Cult.

There have been reports of how the Cult has enabled men to play the system. e.g. One demanded prison indulged his s xual fantasy/ fetish of wearing baby nappies, and being spoon-fed pureed food, and to have his hand held by a guard when leaving his cell.

Another prolific rapist actually achieved his first rape inside the women's prison by attacking one of the staff during the formal admission routine, while others get their s xual enjoyment by demanding that female staff carry out intimate body searches.

A guard has, without comment, mentioned a decision by the Cult-Captured prison service that in his (a women's) jail, a rota of two male guards must be on duty inside each cell, round the clock, for the very precious special (i.e. male) prisoners. There are barely enough guards to keep the entire prison population safe.

Catering to people who demand these ridiculous "human rights" when they have ridden roughshod over the human rights of others - usually vulnerable women and children - is beyond cracked.

If they claim female identity - straight for castration whether they request it or not. No-one can give them female genitalia, but we can at least take away their horrible male bits which must be causing them all sorts of distress. Don't so many of them claim that it is "struggling with their gender identity" that so often causes them to commit such terrible sexual and violent crimes in the first place?

Two birds, one stone.