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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Elite British sportswomen would be uncomfortable with transgender women competing in female categories in their sport - Survey

129 replies

IwantToRetire · 26/03/2024 01:35

More than 100 elite British sportswomen have told the BBC they would be uncomfortable with transgender women competing in female categories in their sport.

But many have expressed fears over sharing their opinion publicly because of concerns they would be seen as discriminatory.

One told the BBC "your career is over" if you speak on the subject, while another said: "You can receive abuse if you support it or don't support it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't."

There were also feelings that there "should be a place in sport for transgender people" and calls for more research and open categories in sports.

Over the past couple of years, a raft of sports have banned transgender women from competing in elite women's sport because of concerns.

Among the concerns from athletes was that having transgender women in female categories was like "going back in time and putting women at the bottom of the pile again", and that it created an "unfair playing field" and could be "harmful".

Full story here https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/68564019

Worth noting that quite a small number of response, out of 615 sent the survey only 143 reponsed! Evidence of their fear of commenting, or lack of trust in the BBC to keep their participation confidential?

'Damned if you do, damned if you don't' - sportswomen on trans debate

More than 100 elite British sportswomen tell the BBC they would be uncomfortable with transgender women competing in female categories in their sport.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/68564019

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BellaAmorosa · 18/04/2024 11:55

Soigneur · 18/04/2024 10:51

@BellaAmorosa just having a thought about your indirect discrimination musings. Our club provides women-only rides, and mixed rides. Just as swimming pools often provide women-only sessions, and mixed sessions. I wonder if this could be considered indirect discrimination against men who's religious beliefs preclude them from mixing with unrelated women? I think that would be a better example than my slightly idiotic charcuterie-based work canteen one. The wording in sections 19 and 19A seem extraordinarily broad. I'm deep into IANAL territory here of course.

IA definitely NAL either.

The bicycle rides are covered by s195 of the EA. Women can always lawfully exclude all males from a gender-affected sport. Even if it's not sport, having women-only rides would be covered by the Positive Action exception.

Your swimming pools example isn't sport so not covered by s195. (Also the Act distinguishes direct discrimination and the other non-direct forms of discrimination and what the claimant has to show and the possible defences of the respondent are different but I don't know the details.)

So to be clear, what follows is my conjecture. I assume you are arguing that
a) if women have single-sex swim sessions, men should have them, too.
and/or b) religious men who are not allowed to mix with strange women should have a men-only session because women to whom that kind of restriction applies do have a SS swim session.

It goes back to what you said a few posts ago about the law permitting, not mandating.
I think it would depend on the specific facts and the rationale for the women-only swim. Let's assume it's a bog standard council-run swimming baths and the justification for the women's swim is Positive Action, which I imagine is usually the case. The PC which is shared by the swimmers in the women-only swim would be Sex, not Religion or Belief. The women-only session would be to encourage women who wouldn't otherwise swim much for whatever reason - it's just that the strictly religious women also benefit from it. The pool could say they don't put on a SS swim session for men as well because there is no need for positive action in relation to encouraging men into swimming, and also that there isn't a session especially for religious women, which is true.

There's bound to be more to it. There might be a public sector duty, or statutory regulations which cover council facilities or something like that, but the above is my guess at how the EA would operate.

IANAL.

SqueakyDinosaur · 19/04/2024 02:49

Soigneur · 18/04/2024 09:49

@BellaAmorosa thanks for that - it would certainly make for an interesting case.

My club, which is BC-affiliated, does run women-only rides and although it has never come up we would politely redirect to a mixed ride any male who tried to sign up to a women's ride. The barrier to entry in terms of fitness though is much higher than a Breeze ride so unfortunately club rides don't really cater for the women that Breeze is aimed at.

What would happen if a man, modified or not, turned up to one of your events under a female name?

Soigneur · 19/04/2024 10:53

SqueakyDinosaur · 19/04/2024 02:49

What would happen if a man, modified or not, turned up to one of your events under a female name?

If they turned up at the ride and were clearly male, their mistake would be pointed out and they would be asked to join a mixed ride. If they insisted on joining the ride I'm not sure what we could do - you can't prevent someone from riding on a public road or bridleway in the same direction as you. I guess it would be complicated by the fact that in cycling it's completely normal to join in with strangers you meet going in the same direction as you (cycling in a group is faster/less tiring than solo) - although the etiquette is always to ask first, and always take your turn on the front. I guess if someone was clearly out to prove a point and insisted on following despite having been asked to join a mixed ride, the leader might cancel the ride, or grin and bear it and then ban them so they couldn't do it again. If they persisted then that would likely be harassment and a police matter. It would certainly make for an awkward coffee break!

This is all completely hypothetical as I think the possibility of this happening is precisely zero. There are far easier days at the office for the average TRA than desperately hanging on to a bunch of pissed-off women for 100km of hills.

SinnerBoy · 16/11/2024 14:10

I see that the women of the UK professional pool players a engaging experts, to provide evidence to sue the Ultimate Pool Group and the World Eightball Pool Federation, on the grounds of sexual discrimination and harassment.

They aim to prove that males have significant physical advantages over women, in the sport.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14087545/Female-pool-players-experts-transgender-players-unfair-advantage.html

Now, they have appointed a biologist and a cue expert to assess the advantages of a male-born physique at a pool table, such as increased strength, narrower hips, lack of breasts and better fast-twitch muscles.

Ms Pinches said her own experiments have revealed that men can hit a pool ball at up to 26mph, while for women the maximum is 19mph.

She said male-born players can make better shots against the edge of the table because they don't have a woman's curvy hips, generally have better reach due to longer arms and are not encumbered by breasts when leaning over the table.

Go on, ladies!

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